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2/50: Well, if the rules are the least important part of a game
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:33:44 1991
Reply to : ...
Original by : Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
what does it matter if a GM changes a few around?
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*** BAMF! ***
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3/50: OK, I stand corrected, Neuromancer
Name: Bamf! #24 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:36:09 1991
Reply to : Have to break in, Bamf
Original by : Nueromancer #24 @5206
The players do make a big part of the game.
:)
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*** BAMF! ***
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4/50: Changing Rules
Name: Frank Filz #126 @9955
Date: Tue Oct 22 18:55:47 1991
Shihear Kallizad has some very good points, but Ialso have reservations about
his views:
1 - when I play a modified game, I do have written rules. I also call it
"Modified xyz". I use the original name of the game because that IS a
framework of the game. If you know that game, you know areasonable amount of
the game.
2 - don't play a game if you don't like all the rules? Well, I guess I won't
run ANY commercial game system...There is NO commercial game system I am
totally happy with. On the other hand I do have a limit. I gave up on AD&D
after sufficiently altering the rules that my "house rules" replaced the
original books, and the game was still not appealing.
3 - on rules discussions and changing rules during play: I have a couple
comments here. First, if a changed rule is in question it is quite valid to
have a discussion (during or after the game depending on importance of the
decision etc). Some of my changes have been massive goofs (and many changes
are as a result of "oops, that change causes this incredibly unreasonable
effect"). Second, I have been running a game of my own design now for a while.
It was run as a playtest (though admittedly, many of the later players
actually weren't really informed as such). In a playtest game, it is quite
reasonable to halt play for a massive discussion of game rules. On the other
hand, it really is important that all players know the game is a playtest
game. Third, quite frequently a situation comes up where the rules really
don't answer the problem satisfactorily. A quick discussion is often in order
(and in these cases I almost always give some justification for my ruling).
More on rules (and other) arguments during play. These are often the player's
fault. Recently, I had a player argue at great length about why I would not
tell him why I had made a ruling. He could not accept "I made the ruling
that way because instinctively it felt right to me". This player has quite
often questioned rules (now granted, this is in the playtest game). There are
certain elements of my game which are not up for discussion (as an example,
discussion during playtest of AD&D 3rd edition with the intent of replacing
character classes with lists of skills and powers ala Champions or GURPS is
pointless. That is NOT the AD&D game system. It might be a better system, but
you don't decide apples taste horrible and paint an orange red and call it an
apple 2 [not meaning to denigrate that lovely if outdated computer the Apple
II]).
5/50: ICE and Hero Games
Name: Bamf! < Rama Rama > #6 @19953
Date: Tue Oct 22 20:13:54 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)
RE: As I have mentioned in "E-Mail" to someone...
BY: Ferret #1 @9701
The merger also allows the campaign suppliments to be combined into one set.
The Mythic Egypt suppliment is rather good.
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*** BAMF! ***
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6/50: Gamma World????
Name: Dungeon Master #1 @8327
Date: Tue Oct 22 05:23:30 1991
From: Fantasy's inc.. (South Carolina)
Has anyone seen the reissue of Gamma world? Evidently TSR just reissued
it. I Noticed the box set yesterday in one of our local stores. hmmm Wonder if
they are planning a ressurection of this game. Might piss alot of people off
however. I had bought damn near all the stuff they came out with over the
years, then the game died and thru the years I misplaced the stuff. Guess if I
want to get back into the game I'll have to give TSR more money now, hmmm
Wonder if they planed that.....
DuNgEoN MaStEr
Mono~de~solerta~ The D.M. disappears.....
There is a very fine line between fantasy and reality....and we obscure it!
Fantasy's inc.. ~794-0936~ Home of Columbia S.C.'s roleplayers
When the gamemaster smiles,.......... Its too late!!
7/50: Testing...
Name: Beltair #1 @2368
Date: Tue Oct 22 07:04:39 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)
Test Message From The Forbidden Zone. Are we getting out?
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012adlgj210
0121@2368210
------<( The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN 213-929-4460 )>------
------<( We Are Now SNARFABLE!! D/L FILELIST.ZIP )>------
8/50: What kind and how many
Name: Flashback #51 @2368
Date: Tue Oct 22 16:02:26 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)
Games are running in this sub, and if so, which one are open....
SHBCK
------<(The Forbidden Zone Norwalk PIN)>------
------<(Unofficial WWIV Suport Board - Over 8megs in Mods and Utilities)>------
9/50: Uhh....
Name: Rick #8 @19953
Date: Wed Oct 23 09:53:08 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)
RE: What kind and how many
BY: Flashback #51 @2368
I think this sub is for dicussion of RPGs only...
Not actually playing them...
R.
10/50: Shihear...
Name: Eight Hundred, 4 Score & Eight #5 @19953
Date: Wed Oct 23 16:34:26 1991
From: Midnight In Heaven (North Carolina)
RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
It's really hard to take any of your arguments seriously when you're so picky
that you will jump on someone's case for spelling "AD&D" with a plus symbol
instead of an ampersand. Why didn't you correct the grammar of his post while
you were at it?
BTW, Since what's in the books is so important to you:
"It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is
important. *NEVER* [my emphasis] hold to the letter written, nor allow some
barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you....Within
the *BROAD PARAMATERS* [again my emphasis] given in the Advancved Dungeons &
Dragons volumes, you [i.e., the DM] are the creator and final arbiter."
That was quoted from p. 230 of 1st Edition Dungeon Masters Guide. In other
words, breaking the rules is in the rules.
Eight Hundred, Four Score, and Eight...
The Number of the Wildebeest!
11/50: All or Nothing...
Name: Caesar #17 @4407
Date: Monday, October 21, 1991 11:43 pm
From: Pepper Land [DREM] (Georgia)
AD&D is not a game of all or nothing. When a DM chooses to modify the stated
rules, he has an obligation to inform all his players of the change. However,
it's perfectly reasonable to still call it AD&D. As long as you mention that
it's MODIFIED AD&D.
Players and DM's who use these modified systems really shouldn't go bragging
about their super characters, or transporting them to other worlds/campaigns,
or using these new rules with any short term group that doesn't have time to
absorb all the changes. In short term games, the rules, AS STATED, should be
absolute, as it's a real waste of time to decide which modifications to use and explain them to all and sundry involved.
AD&D is a set of guidelines. It must be flexible to succeed in a variety of
campaign worlds. However, it is also a standard, and it must be INflexible to
maintain continuity. Anybody who can't learn to keep this dichotomy straight
is probably too stupid to roleplay successfully, anyway (I did say probably, so I could be wrong).
Just butting in where I have no business,
Caesar
Origin: Pepper Land (WWIVnet @4407) - (404) 452-7387 - Atlanta
"Pepper Land is a tickle on the BLUE belly of the universe...
...it MUST be scratched!!!" - Yellow Submarine, 1968
12/50: Dark Sun
Name: Vamp #309 @9702
Date: Fri Oct 18 11:25:05 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
Sorry to change he subject but what do you all think of the Dark Sun
world? I just picked up the boxed set this week.
-----
Of all things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
13/50: We ahd the chat before but I still think
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Fri Oct 18 15:37:21 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
that magery shouldn't be outlawed ingame such as Dark Sun... I hope they
bring some spelljammers into the game and maybe even find or create a way for
the earth to revitalize itself. and what about the clerics? Gad magic
draining the planet?
14/50: It...
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Sat Oct 19 18:18:20 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> I am getting tired of this vampire decker crap...
<Written By:> Seer Count Zero #90 @7653
is still being debated if thevampire is dead from the HVV... somthing... I
dn't remember the exact term.... or is still considered living. The disease
is more a genetic rearrangings of the metahumans dna I think... anyhow, I
believe the mana isn't going anywhere if the vampire decks intothe
matrix...also don't believe the datajack will stay in the vamp's body long
enough to be effective. The use of invasive cybernetics wouldn't work on
regenning creatures. The best way for a vamp to get to the matrix is another
agent in the matrix or a virtual reality helmet and body suit. A lot more
work but no need of the neural interface... probably also a lot slow but who
knows?
15/50: Where can I download it from?
Name: Montana Wildehack #188 @3658
Date: Mon Oct 21 13:54:14 1991
From: The Grey Matter Guild (Kansas)
RE: Maxtrix game on IEX
I will get it for this area. (I have not seen it on any bbs in this area)
Help! *grin*
The Wildehacker-------------------->
16/50: Still got the dice but...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:29:41 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Something tells me you read only main-line fiction.
<Written By:> Ferret #1 @9701
All of my characters save a few made at far away houses for single
adventures are saved on the computer in convenient data files. I still use the
dice and pencils though during play, It's not convenient to edit your character directly in a word processor during the game.
Crazy Kid
-----
Serve the computer, the computer is your friend...
17/50: Positive...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:36:58 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Jump > Walk...
<Written By:> Black-Robe Mage #9 @9701
Mechs jumping is not able to exced a mechs walking speed. The old battle
tech book and the new BT handbook both agree on this one. Look around in the
fine print around the mech creatin area and you'l eventually find it.
After 5 years I should know...
Crazy Kid
18/50: I've seen the boxed set...
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:38:41 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Dark Sun
<Written By:> Vamp #309 @9702
I've got a fried with it. It looks like a good harsh campaign world. I
don't think I'll probably spend my own scarce monies on it but it looks pretty
good.
Crazy Kid
-----
Remember; nly you can prevent forrests...
19/50: Yah. I agree, good game for a silly weekend.
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:46:30 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Toons!
<Written By:> Dr.Jones #37 @5460
I don't own the game but have played it with a hoarde of friends on
occasion. You also might want to look up Teenagers from outer space. Regardless of what others tell ya it uses the same rule system. It just has a different
motto and stranger items...(Goop gun, boygirl gun, pan galactic getto blaster(
Really big sterio),holoman (Walkman video glasses),ect.)
Had a rather silly game once where my character had the talent of pulling
things out of my pocket. On'y prob was that over half the time I got something
else. I asked for a Big Mac (I was hungry) and ended up with a Mac truck.
Soooooooo.... Putting on my holoman I start up the engine and blindly drive
through the complex looking for a fast food joint... The other players wanted
me dead because I conveniently came about as close to crushing one of them as
possible, saved his but though, crashed into the strange alien that was about
to put him back in his cell....
Really weird games...
Crazy Kid
-----
Serve the computer, the computer is your friend...
20/50: Another post...(It's been a while....)
Name: Crazy Kid #50 @9702
Date: Mon Oct 21 21:55:20 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
If you are having probs with keeping in the role playing aspect of things
I suggest that you try to get a chance to watch one of the on line games.
Because of the limitations of running a game by posts it tends to keep things
twoards the essence of role playing. Moving more and more away from the rules
you get to what role playing really is.
I because of other obligations ond the extreme activity of the board I'm
on was not able to get into the game I am GM of for 3 to four days. I return to see near 20 messages back and forth regarding the game. The game was still
going WITHOUT me as the GM, the players were interacting and didn't actually
need me to be there to keep things in order. This is the essence of role
playing...
(Yawn.) Time fer some sleep.
Crazy Kid
21/50: What about Lams'?
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Tue Oct 22 13:39:35 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Positive...
<Written By:> Crazy Kid #50 @9702
They can far out jump the walking speed when inLam mode.
22/50: With almost public access to that su
Name: Lance #259 @9702
Date: Tue Oct 22 13:41:34 1991
From: Someplace Else (Alaska)
<Reply to:--> Another post...(It's been a while....)
<Written By:> Crazy Kid #50 @9702
whatdo expect from a bunchof modemers over theweekend? Youhave to stay on top
of the subject that's one of the main reasons that the DM is the center point
of thegame. What DM says is Truth.
23/50: Is there anybody out there
Name: Kitty Killer #141 @2368
Date: Wed Oct 23 00:33:39 1991
From: The Forbidden Zone - Norwalk PIN (Southern California)
interested in playing/learning how to play AD&D????? Our group gets together
on Sat. nights in Bellflower!!!!! For more details, E-mail me!!!!!
KITTY KILLER
Life is a game that is ruled with an IRON FIST!!!!
24/50: Toast: On
Name: Nueromancer #24 @5206
Date: Wed Oct 23 16:42:02 1991
From: The Realm BBS (Kentucky)
RE: ...
BY: Shihear Kallizad #1 @4407
The "spiffy little blue boxes" are the 2nd edition optional rules. Again, I
don't deal with second edition, because of the problems it creates with the
"unchangeable rule" atitude.
Your example of rules modification is biased. First, called shots are
allowed (2nd edition AD&D, Fighter's HB), though I do not use them. (not THEN,
probably, but now). Also, if you have critical strikes (which I use a different
method for... more realistic) then you must have the opposite. Not only really
GOOD, but really BAD. If that kobold had rolled a 1, and critically MISSED,
killing his companion, would you have been so incensed? I doubt it.
2nd, I make a point of telling everyone involved in a game of any and all
house rules that are currently active. Rather foolish not to. if they don't
like it, they have the option of leaving then and there. Or we can work
something out.
As for your up-and-leaving - I can understand what drove you to do that,
though I think I would have responded differently.
True. Technically, it is not AD&D. But I DON'T say it is AD&D - I add,
as a said, "with some changes". But I dispute that it is so different as THAT.
Not so. The BASIC play of the game remains the same.
"When they DO deal with something, it's the rule."
Ok. I can agree with that. In the 1st edition DMG, it specificly states
that the DM can change any rule at any time for whatever reason.
They dealt with it. It's the rule.
If it isn't situation, they can debate it when they first make the
character, or before the next game if the character already exists. If it IS
situational, then the DM can as I said make a snap judgement.
The laws of magic do not dictate that large amounts of metal disrupt
spellcasting. What of t?@elven fighter-mage? What of the spell Lightning
Bolt? The reasoning was that armor restricted movements too much. A fighter
over 10th level will feel as comfortable in armor as he is out of it, and if
they dual-class to mage, then they CAN wear armor and cast spells (at the cost
of 1/2 xp, true). That armor must be padded or leather - nothing else works.
And, of course, that applies to NPCs as well, if they decide to do the same.
No imbalance.
No, you do not end up with a super class. Look at the information you
have. It is most definately NOT a super class. It is something designed to
make dual-class characters survivable.
My goodness. We agree. On heavier armor then padded, you get a chance to
send the spell correctly, and a chance to botch it. At chain mail, the
botch-percentage is 75%. And yes, it IS simpler to go with the written
guidelines. I choose not to, because I don't let complexity scare me.
As for resistance being immediate, all-or-nothing, well, if that is your
opinion, fine. I have no problem with that - the DM's decision. But in my
games, resistance might give you some time, situationally.
Again, that situation came up ONCE. after that, resistance worked that
way, unless a player has a problem with it.
BETTER SUITED TO THE SITUATION does not mean better. Just that something
doesn't in that situation as well as something else, though it may work
wonderfully everywhere else.
And for the description of rule changes in your last paragraph - those are
NOT good changes. They imbalance the game.
Nueromancer
Is
Currently Existing In This Space-Time Nexus
25/50: Rules
Name: Nemisis #64 @4701
Date: Mon Oct 21 20:09:24 1991
From: The Lair of the Wolverine (Florida)
Hey, I follow most rules, and the ones that strike me as dumb or the ones I
dont understand, I adapt. I repeat ADAPT! I dont beleive rules are the least
important part of RPG's, if they are, why buy the RPG? You can play anything
without rules! With anything, you have to have rules. How else do you find
out if you hit or miss, get killed or stay alive, get the babe or not?!!!
I am your NEMISIS
___
IMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMooO(. #)OooMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;
: The Lair of the Wolverine. @4701 (407)294-9446 :
:"We are NOT your average BBS.":
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM<_-_>MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
26/50: RULES
Name: Dodger #183 @4701
Date: Mon Oct 21 22:50:04 1991
From: The Lair of the Wolverine (Florida)
I'm getting a little tired of people bickering about rules. They're saying
that you need to follow the EXACT rules as if they were handed down on a stone
slate from heaven or else your game sucks and you're a scumwad. Thet're
saying that you have to ignore the rules and freewheel because the game is the
important thing, and having lots of rules is boring and you spend all your
time reading tables. LETS GET A LITTLE BIT MATURE HERE!
Anyone can run their game however they want to. If you don't like rules,
fine. Zap 'em. Anyone who likes rigid rules doesn't have to play your game,
and you don't have to play their "restricitve, non-fun" version. And to
whoever posted that garbage about the designer knowing more about the game
than you ever will, so you should accept his rules as holy writ, that's a big
load of crap. No game designer is God. They can't foresee everything that
the players are going to want to do. Every game on the market has
imperfections. It's only natural. You pick the one you like best and use it.
If anything doesn't fit, or is lacking, you can adjust it to work however you
want because it's your campaign. You can't tell me that the designer knows
everything about his world perfectly and knows in advance everything the
players are going to try and wrote a rule for it. I'll bet you can call up
FASA and ask them about vampire deckers, and they haven't thought about it.
If anyone out there wants to talk about RPGs, then feel free to come and be
welcome. If you can't think of anything better to do that icker and argue
about something that makes no difference anyway, then go do it in E-Mail or
something and spare the rest of us your ignorance. I'm sorry, but the
immaturity level here is reaching critical mass. Rules are meant not to be
the word of God, they are meant to be guidelines. They aren't perfect, you
can call any game designer and ask him/her and they will tell you that the
rules aren't perfect. If games were perfect, why do you think that there ar
second editions? Because the first one had flaws. So does the second one.
So will the 34th edition. But that doesn't mean that because of something
that the designer didn't foresee that we just have to shrug and use a rule
that doesn't make sense in one special situation. Anyone with enough wisdom
to make the rules work the way they were MEANT to, and not the way they were
put into WORDS, I applaud you. The rest of you, well, keep practicing.
The Artful Dodger
___
IMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMooO(. #)OooMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;
: The Lair of the Wolverine. @4701 (407)294-9446 :
:"We are NOT your average BBS.":
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27/50: Rules? Guidelines? And What Game Are We Playing, Anyway?
Name: Familiar Cat #31 @19957
Date: Thu Oct 24 17:37:04 1991
From: Format C: (North Carolina)
I have no problem with "by the book" games or "modified rules" games.
I've played in games, GM'd by people of both types, and had lots of fun with
both. However, I must admit that it is easier for a player to come into a
"by the book" game than one that is so heavily modded that you don't know
what game you're playing.
A good rule of the thumb that I've found for RPGs is that if you plan to
use house rules for things directly effecting characters, then one should
keep a copy of these rules for players to familiarize themselves with before
the game. Especially so in the case of alternate character generation
methods.
Case In Point : A few years ago I was playing old TRAVELLER and I
noticed that my character only had about half the skills of the other
characters. My first conclusion was that my character was generated out of
Traveller Book 1 (Characters & Combat) but after talking with another player,
I discovered that all the characters were out of book 1 and that the GM had
special generation rules for background and educational skills that I did not
know about. I asked the GM about this, and he confirmed what the other
player had told me. He simply had forgotten about the alternate generation
method with me. One of the reasons for this is that when I came in, he was
busy running a session, and couldn't tell me about the mods he had made to
the game. All of which only existed in his memory.
Another Case In Point : Last year I was gaming with a VERY large GURPS group,
of which many of us ran differnt game, all with GURPS. Every one of us in
the group had a differnt financial situation, so we all weren't able to buy
each and every new GURPS supplement that was published. We started having
problems... real problems, when characters that were created with rules
expansions out of GURPS SPACE started showing up in games along side of
characters only in the basic book. Since this space game was very "Star
Wars"esque there were lots and lots of high-G space combat. High
GEE-Tollerence is an advantage that all fighter pilot characters needed, but
only the ones that had GURPS SPACE knew about. Anyway, to solve this
problem, all the GM's in the group agreed to a few things. 1) That all
players would be informed of the rules for character generation at least a
week before the actual game, 2) People would be given a list of expanded
skills, advantages, disadvantages, and equipment that would be included in
the character generation process, 3) Players would be given a one page
"brief" on the game world and "philosophy" thereof, 4) and copys of
additional rules would be made available to everyone. It sounded like a
great idea, but would it work? Well, I had my doubts, but the first new game
after that proved me wrong. The GM, Marc Faulcon, had typed all the rules
for character generation into his computer, along with game world background,
and character sugestions. There were no questions about the game, and
everyone had ballanced characters. That set a precident, form that day on,
we all lived by these simple rules and our bickering about character
generation died.
Now, I realize that I used GURPS as an example, but I also play AD&D both 1st
and 2nd Editions. With first edition, you had games running with The
Player's Handbook, The DMG, and The Monster Manual, you also had game running
with the addition of The Unearthed Arcana, and some people even used
additional material from DRAGON Magazine and RoleAids (by Mayfair Games).
And you still have the same thing with 2nd Edition AD&D, you have the Players
Handbook, and the Dungeon Masters Guide, and then you have all the little
class companion books, which complicate things even more. So the same
solution could apply to AD&D games as well.