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Sierra was captured, then killed, by an accounting fraud

Author: danso

Score: 268

Comments: 116

Date: 2020-10-30 12:48:54

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sokoloff wrote at 2020-10-30 15:03:54:

I worked for a game studio that was acquired by Sierra in late 1995. Being acquired by Ken and Roberta was surreal; they were two of my idols from childhood gaming and they were every bit as great to work for (via multiple layers of bosses) as you'd hope. They were gamers; they cared about people having fun playing games. They were also hard-nosed about their development teams creating product that would achieve that goal. I remember having to answer to Ken in person in a meeting about what my plan was to get my title shipped. He was firm and fair, but he didn't like my hand-waving at the schedule and task-breakdown. (He'd come to visit our studio in general, not to ream me out about shipping late, but he was spot on that I'd not been diligent enough in my prep and planning. We didn’t call it that, but my burndown chart was not tilted downward.)

Every step along the rest of the journey with Sierra was a nightmare for employees. CUC, Cendant, Vivendi, and maybe there was another link in the chain, but I got fed up and quit in spring of 1997. We had incredibly talented and passionate artists (2D and 3D) and along the way a lot of that got shipped out of country to artists who seem to have never seen an American auto race. Several employees sued over shenanigans with our stock options treatment; I didn't join in (though perhaps I should have as I think we were getting screwed). IMO, the acquirers just sucked all the fun out of the room and a lot of talented devs and producers left. If you're not having fun working in computer gaming, you might as well go not have fun someplace that pays well.

Ken and Roberta are two of the good ones in my book.

0 - Papyrus Design [IndyCar and NASCAR Racing]

danso wrote at 2020-10-30 15:36:32:

Thanks for sharing! I played the Quest games as a kid and only heard in passing about Ken and Roberta and early Sierra (I was young enough to not know how unusual it was for a software company to be started and run by a married couple). In my completely presumptive head canon, Sierra petered out because LucasArts games were so much better, and Ken & Roberta sold out and moved into early retirement. I hadn't known Roberta was fighting to the very end for her vision on King's Quest VIII.

(Speaking of LucasArts: peeking at KQ8's Wikipedia entry, I see Roberta made the astonishing claim that KQ8 sold twice as well as Grim Fandango:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Quest:_Mask_of_Eterni...

)

WorldMaker wrote at 2020-10-30 15:59:26:

That actually was briefly true as I recall. It was an early sign of the problems of "preorder culture" in games (a lesson we're still relearning/refighting time-and-again today): KQ8 was a preorder darling with a ton of hype and anticipation. Grim Fandango was a sleeper that "no one" thought to preorder and the preorder shops (for their reasons) weren't pushing. Grim Fandango was considered a "flop" for a bunch of years, though obviously it's done far better in the long tail of post-preorder sales than KQ8.

737maxtw wrote at 2020-10-30 18:39:02:

I think with Sierra you are right but it was a slower build up imo.

I remember KQ6 being a big bit of pomp and circumstance with its production values etc, more promotion than you would see for a computer game at the time.

And then KQ7 happened. A victim of a bit of overhypeing and a LOT of WinG pain. Could never get it running on a pc our family owned, even proper pentiums.

ahartmetz wrote at 2020-10-30 17:15:45:

Yes, there were at least two genres where LucasArts seemed to make games that were strictly better than Sierra's: adventures and (arcade-ish) flight simulators. Not only better, but the best. For flying games, Origin was a contender, but despite all the advanced graphics and FMV, flying and shooting in Wing Commander was not as fun as in X-Wing and TIE Fighter.

tdumitrescu wrote at 2020-10-31 04:06:22:

When I was a kid I absolutely preferred Sierra's adventure games, especially the King's Quest series. They were so much more sincere and aesthetic, while the Lucasarts ones were more cartoony and full of corny jokes that broke the 4th wall. (To be fair Space Quests did this a lot too, and those were great.) I was always offended by the point-and-click interface which felt dumbed down compared to the bare text input. Even if the latter was of course severely limited and frustrated a lot of gamers, it always felt more open-ended and limitless to me. You never knew when some longshot idea you typed out would actually work, like yeah you really are on the same wavelength as the designers. I used to dream about making games like that with far more advanced parsers and dictionaries (but like so many, I tended to get sucked into the rabbit hole of building the engine and development tools rather than the actual games).

hnick wrote at 2020-10-31 03:43:38:

Privateer, though... I loved the hell out of that game.

I don't think we had a Star Wars variant but that would've been something.

mrguyorama wrote at 2020-10-30 17:28:46:

I played only Wing Commander: Prophecy (one of the last ones) and I found it way better than the older star wars games, probably just a normal passage of time thing honestly.

If you love those kinds of games and are missing them, check out Freespace, which you can get cheap on GOG, and the Knossos launcher, which allows you to download mods like the open source re-implementation of the game engine which vastly improves things, and some fan made campaigns/overhauls including a great Wing Commander style one.

Alternatively, EA (the owners of Origin's intellectual property) recently released StarWars Squadrons, which has a short campaign that certainly scratches that old itch. However I don't know how I feel about the multiplayer.

paulryanrogers wrote at 2020-10-31 03:51:18:

Wing Commander 3 and 4 were much better engines than the first two games. Even with some fondness in my heart for Privateer those early WC engines were awful. And modern patches and tweaks the controls still leave them feeling jerky and imprecise.

There have been fan efforts to port them to newer engines, though all look janky IMO. Here's hoping for a proper remaster.

ahartmetz wrote at 2020-10-30 19:12:25:

This is not the first time I hear good things about Freespace. I had the first one, and I didn't think it was as good as X-Wing or TIE Fighter. Guess I should try the open source version of Freespace 2...

brutus1213 wrote at 2020-10-31 00:45:14:

I spent so much time on Decent/Freespace. The other game that gave me the same feeling was MechWarrior 3 (I had just learned of derivatives in school and used to gawk that they showed the derivative for heat production in the HUD).

Modern games have beautiful graphics but just don't recreate the feeling. Alternatively, perhaps, I am a different person and unable to enjoy the simple pleasure.

robertlagrant wrote at 2020-10-30 21:12:22:

Still remember those Hornet missiles from FreeSpace. So satisfying!

(Veteran pilot of Elite, TIE Fighter, X-Wing and Wing Commander here.)

NikolaNovak wrote at 2020-10-30 18:40:38:

Hmm, I thought Red Baron by Dynamics@Sierra was quite a critical and popular success as far as "arcade-ish flight sims" go...

tclancy wrote at 2020-10-30 20:37:57:

Man, I forgot I owned that and both of the Aces Over games. I miss things that came with spiral-bound manuals.

No idea why though.

AndrewBissell wrote at 2020-10-30 23:47:32:

I played and still love many of the LucasArts adventure games: _Sam & Max Hit the Road_, _Day of the Tentacle_, _Full Throttle_, _Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis_, _Grim Fandango_. But the game which still holds the biggest emotional resonance for me all these years later is _Gabriel Knight II: The Beast Within_. Maybe there's just something about the full motion video format that allowed me to identify more with the characters or something, but I still find myself replaying scenes from it in my head every now and then. Robert Holmes's score added so much to it (and even the non-FMV predecessor) as well.

The X-Wing series were definitely hands down the best arcade flight sims though.

cpard wrote at 2020-10-31 02:19:30:

The biggest emotional resonance for me was the first Gabriel Knight - Sins of the Fathers. I still have memories of the scene where Wolfgang dies. Amazing game and I feel blessed that I had the opportunity to play games like these as a child.

burnte wrote at 2020-10-31 01:45:52:

I have a very vivid memory of Papyrus' NASCAR game in the late 90s. I was in the sales and service industry, I was realy just a couple years into it, still 17, and had sold a beefy system for gaming to a guy who was a NASCAR fan. The day I was supposed to deliver it I dislocated my kneecap. I cslled him, let him know, and came home from the ER with him in my driveway waiting for me. When I got out of the car in the leg brace, he said "Oh thank god your'e hurt! I thought you were trying to rip me off!" I will always remember that game for reasons unrelated to gaming. :D

magicalhippo wrote at 2020-10-30 16:01:29:

> NASCAR Racing

Oh man I spent so many hours on that. Thanks for the good memories!

rashkov wrote at 2020-10-30 17:17:13:

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that game. I was not very good at it, but eventually I figured out that I could drive the car in reverse and because there was no hitbox on the bumper, the racetrack's wall just kind of guided me along while I accelerated to maximum speed. Fun memory

myself248 wrote at 2020-10-30 20:27:09:

Haha, yes, backwards was the best way to play Nascar!

I remember being absolutely blown away that the game kept track of tire rubber on the track, and you could see your own spinouts and stuff on the next lap.

holoduke wrote at 2020-10-31 00:02:45:

The former NASCAR engine still exists in a new simulator called iracing. You can still notice the same graphics style. Lots of famous real race drivers using it.

CMay wrote at 2020-10-30 19:08:15:

Never had more than a passing interest in IndyCar or NASCAR races, but I remember enjoying both of those on a 486 DX with the turbo button on the case when I was a kid. Links: The Challenge of Golf was another one.

Daytona USA was released around the same time... and had a karaoke mode so you could sing along to the soundtrack while racing. That was Papyrus' true downfall, they never identified karaoke as a critical feature in any of their games. :)

sokoloff wrote at 2020-10-30 19:17:05:

Ironically, Daytona _was actually one of our downfalls_ or at least a thorn in our side. Sega had the license to the Daytona name and usage for electronic games and that’s one of the most well-known tracks and events. We had every other Cup and Indy circuit, but couldn’t get Daytona.

(For our in-house racing series, we had a “Florida” circuit that was the first and middle race in the schedule. For some reason, it was surprisingly close to Daytona International Speedway in design.)

We’d have probably sold more boxes and surely would have gotten more online subs if we’d been able to offer Daytona. (Some of the Papyrus crew went on to form iRacing and they’ve got a great product over there; still no karaoke though...)

CMay wrote at 2020-10-30 20:07:34:

I guess that doesn't surprise me too much for a sim, though the future of racing games may be the other way around. Some of the most loved tracks in racing games are fantasy ones where you have full control to iterate on the experience and scenery.

Would be nice to see next-gen racers returning to that in a big way and eventually have people wanting to license the tracks for real-world construction after they've been battle tested by millions of virtual drivers.

bsenftner wrote at 2020-10-30 16:45:55:

I worked for several game publishers as a developer, and would be called in to firefight games at other developers in danger of not shipping or shipping past a critical deadline. The Sierra productions were typically nightmares, at least the ones that needed publisher bailouts. I never interacted with Ren or Roberta beyond introduction, as firefighting a failing production tends to be upper management scarce.

LawnGnome wrote at 2020-10-30 17:31:44:

The /r/Games thread on this is interesting, as Ken himself is commenting on it:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/jkbg4g/how_sierra_wa...

gryson wrote at 2020-10-30 18:01:48:

Ken Williams' initial comment there:

"It does seem obvious that I was fooled by Walter Forbes, but so were most people. He was the Jeff Bezos of his time. He had a big-four accounting firm who signed off on their financials every 90 days. Henry Silverman (Avis, Howard Johnson's, and many other companies) believed in him, as did everyone. He had been on Sierra's board for five years. I thought I knew him well. I also thought we had structured the deal such that the software business couldn't be screwed up. And, I had so much faith that Sierra's market dominance was so strong that no one could ever screw it up. As you might imagine, I've looked back on the crash many times, and still believe I made the right move based on what I knew at the time. The problem was that I was dealing with snakes and didn't know it. MANY people lost their jobs and had their net worth wiped out. It was indeed a sad event, but I wasn't the only person fooled by CUC. Tens of thousands of people directly or indirectly were hurt by the financial scandal."

There are others, too, that are worth reading for the interested.

Waterluvian wrote at 2020-10-30 22:29:17:

I think he's right. Consider this: if you were the person who managed to sniff out that Forbes was bad news, you would be someone sniffing out $3B in fraud. That kind of makes you a wizard.

The reason these people are so profound is specifically because they can fool a lot of people in a con over many many years.

robertlagrant wrote at 2020-10-30 21:13:14:

I'm amazed people still trust audits.

lawnchair_larry wrote at 2020-10-30 23:11:59:

Funny you say this, my reaction upon reading it was “why _wouldn’t_ they?” and reflecting on how I would absolutely trust an audit from a reputable company.

I know very little about accounting and company financials, but I work in security, and quickly remembered how much time I spend trying to convey to people that 3rd party compliance audits are not even worth the paper they’re written on, yet people still have confidence in them.

Kind of a Gell-Mann amnesia effect I suppose.

andrekandre wrote at 2020-10-31 01:01:27:

> I made the right move based on what I knew at the time.

its such a hard thing to really obsorb, but in business and life, we can make "the right decision" and still fail... its tough...

jessaustin wrote at 2020-10-30 17:00:15:

E&Y strike again! Any record that includes both CUC and WeWork betrays a deep rot. The Big 5 became the Big 4, not too long after the events of TFA. Why shouldn't E&Y be killed by the courts?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24802741

georgiecasey wrote at 2020-10-30 19:28:40:

Usually after Googling with the letters and some context I can figure out most acronyms but I've failed on this one. What's TFA?

jessaustin wrote at 2020-10-30 20:10:45:

HN search is often helpful:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Doctor_Fegg wrote at 2020-10-30 19:39:19:

The F——ing Article. Slashdot-speak for the article being discussed here.

sparky_z wrote at 2020-10-30 19:40:27:

"The fucking article". As in, "RTFA".

nitrogen wrote at 2020-10-30 20:05:44:

Also sometimes "The Fine Article".

stefan_ wrote at 2020-10-30 23:24:07:

Ernst & Young also, of course, audited Wirecard.

TT3351 wrote at 2020-10-30 21:20:44:

"Had they done so, they’d have found only confirmation that CUC was a healthy, hungry start-up well-liked by Wall Street. While CUC wouldn’t let Sierra see its internal financial data, it did have assurances from the Big Four accounting firm Ernst & Young that the books were not just in order but reflected a company so fabulously wealthy that it could pay for Sierra not with cash, but pieces of itself."

2 weeks ago on WSJ & HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24802741

"Firms That Imploded Have Something in Common: Ernst and Young Audited Them"

bane wrote at 2020-10-31 04:37:06:

In case anybody is interested, Ken Williams has _just_ published a book.

https://kensbook.com/

tartoran wrote at 2020-10-30 16:10:08:

I wasn't much of a gamer but oh boy, did I love all the quest games, they totally appealed to my tastes. I loved the 2D-ness of the games, the attention to details, the scripts, the colors, the music. You could tell there was a talented team behind those games. Games have now gotten so complex graphics-wise but it seems to me that they lost something it's very hard to pinpoint, maybe the limitations of that age was what made the games more creative? Or maybe it's pure subjectivity on my part.

sidlls wrote at 2020-10-30 16:40:59:

Games are richer in terms of both content (“things to do”) and visual imagery, but the stories and gameplay are much more uniform now than 20 years ago (which is long after my childhood video game playing period ended). There is some subjectivity here of course, but I occasionally replay games from when I was in college or even elementary school (hello Apple II, Atari and Nintendo). The graphics and limitations are clear, but within those constraints it’s hard to say games have improved that much.

For all the advances in the tech we’ve had I don’t believe we’ve seen equivalent gains in actual gaming experience.

polytely wrote at 2020-10-30 18:14:15:

See IggleSniggle's comment above

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24944816

I would recommend Outer Wilds (2019) for a game that displays a real advance in gameplay mechanics. There is alot of exciting stuff happening in the indie game scene.

egypturnash wrote at 2020-10-31 01:02:47:

Outer Wilds does some amazing stuff. Utterly brilliant in how it constrains your path through it’s small, polished world, and makes it feel incredibly dense.

Hades is also utterly amazing, with similar attention to repeated play.

sidlls wrote at 2020-10-30 21:51:31:

Game mechanics is definitely one area that seems to have been lacking.

Aside from that, there's a certain homogeneity to games these days. I think that's attributable to the fact that there are more of them and that to reach a broader audience there has to be some generalization that occurs.

Retric wrote at 2020-10-30 22:42:54:

Going 3D is a huge limitation on what kind of mechanics you can do. Decent was reasonably popular, but showed how much difficulty many people have given full freedom in 3D space. Sonic style fast scrolling or precise platforming games really don’t translate well.

VR is even worse in that respect as people get seriously disoriented much more easily.

hnick wrote at 2020-10-31 03:55:48:

Going 3D (and HD) also consumes far more budget for art and level design, so companies are less willing to take risks in other areas.

IggleSniggle wrote at 2020-10-30 17:40:07:

These games still exist today, but come from small passion studies (much like early-mid Sierra)...and today, the number of games published is much, much greater than it ever was then. That is to say, generally only indie- or genre- enthusiasts know where to find the "good stuff" for any given category good, because the small studios don't have the marketing dollars to compete with the larger players or to cut through from "sleeper genre hit" to "genre hit," let alone from "genre hit" to "mainstream hit."

The genre games that _do_ make it to mainstream are typically backed by distasteful in-app purchase schemes.

Many people have heard about "Dwarf Fortress" at this point since it's been around so long, but mostly only the "traditional roguelike" fanbase is even aware of games like "Cogmind" (an ascii game with incredible attention to detail that extends beyond being just a great game to things like thoughtfully implemented accessibility features and lovely crafted ascii graphics using its own open sourced ascii engine, RexPaint). Within that enthusiast crowd, though, it's one of those obvious 'oh yeah I know that game' games.

(Okay so my reply started out in good faith but then I couldn't help but use it as an excuse to gush about Cogmind[0] and the work of its author.)

But anyway, as a genre- enthusiast I don't really know what the best forums are for finding other hits in other genres. But occasionally I watch YouTube videos reviewing games similar execution to, say, King's Quest 6, and I really do think there's a rich library of high quality new games coming out in that genre.

Steam's recommendation engine has gotten better at helping you find what you're looking for, fwiw, but you still have to go looking.

A bookstore is probably a good analogy for the experience today. If you only looked at the books in the front of a bookstore, or only read the "popular" books, you might come to the conclusion that most books being written are crap. It helps to go into a bookstore armed with knowledge of what genres you like and which authors are respected for quality before you even get to the browsing stage.

[0] -

https://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/

egypturnash wrote at 2020-10-31 01:06:11:

_I don't really know what the best forums are for finding other hits in other genres._

Find a reviewer who loves some of the same games you love, see what else they like. Personally I like Rock, Paper, Shotgun.

citizenkeen wrote at 2020-10-30 17:58:18:

This is mainly a mirrored effect from movies. AAA games / blockbusters are so much safer than they used to be, but there is so much more that is so much better (by any metric) than there used to be, as well. You just have to dig beyond sales.

jasonv wrote at 2020-10-30 16:38:07:

I'm not a gamer, either, but I might say that Space Quest was my one dip into games, and I played that a lot. That was a long time ago.

SamBam wrote at 2020-10-30 18:22:50:

As someone who adored the old Sierra games as a kid (the _Quest ones, mostly), as well as LucasArts ones (Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones), can anyone recommend great modern games in the same vein? And maybe iOS ones? I'd love games of those style and quality to be my 7-year-old's daughter's first experience with video games.

nicolas_t wrote at 2020-10-31 01:41:14:

The two most kid friendly adventure games I'd recommend are:

- Anna's quest would be great for kid. Based on fairy tales, where a little girl tries to save her grandfather. Expect Evil Witches

- All the adventure games from Humongous Entertainment: Pajama sam, Spy Fox and Freddi Fish. Those are children point and click games created by Secret of Monkey Island's creator Ron Gilbert.

- Broken Age

- Machinarium and Chuchel. In general all games from Amanita Design are just cute and fun to play

- The Book of Unwritten Tales (1 & 2 + the critter chronicles), I think this would be more appropriate for 10-12 years old but this is a great homage to fantasy books

I'd recommend you visit

https://adventuregamers.com/

, they have great reviews of point and click games

lkramer wrote at 2020-10-30 20:06:11:

The Blackwell games hit the right nerve for me:

https://www.gog.com/game/blackwell_bundle

MetallicCloud wrote at 2020-10-30 22:13:50:

Disco Elysium has it's roots in the old school point and click adventures, but has a more dynamic storyline. It would easily be the best point and click game I've ever played.

henrikschroder wrote at 2020-10-31 00:44:17:

Corey and Lori Cole, the Quest for Glory designers, kickstarted and published a game set in the same universe:

https://www.hero-u.com/

nicolas_t wrote at 2020-10-31 01:26:54:

I really recommend that game, it's a fresh take on the original Quest for Glory games and is really fun to play.

Otherwise for people who prefer games that copy more the Quest for Glory concept, there's:

- Heroine's Quest: The Herald of Ragnarok

- Mage's Initiation

- Quest for Infamy

Those 3 games are also good but honestly Hero-U is just more fun to play and feels fresher, it's just a copy of the old formula.

henrikschroder wrote at 2020-10-31 02:22:34:

Yeah, Hero-U is actually a "time management in school setting" game, like Bully or Persona or Fire Emblem: Three Houses.

I tried the Heroine's Quest, but it was just too hard, the puzzles too obtuse for me that I gave up on it.

Gonna check out those last two though, thanks for the tip!

StillBored wrote at 2020-10-30 20:31:12:

Check out Thimbleweed Park. I haven't finished it yet, but I heard about it on HN. Its a great flashback, and i've enjoyed it so far, I'm taking it it small slow pieces to fully appreciate it which is why I haven't finished it yet.

joshschreuder wrote at 2020-10-30 20:48:26:

+1 for Thimbleweed Park, though I probably wouldn't recommend it for a 7 year old.

But Tim Schaeffer's studio Double Fine did Broken Age which I think would be great for a younger audience. Otherwise a lot of those games mentioned have been remastered in recent times, like Grim Fandango adding a non-tank control scheme or Full Throttle.

pygy_ wrote at 2020-10-30 23:30:52:

Broken age is one of the darkest games I’ve ever played... MAJOR SPOILER: The great Mogs stand for pregnancy...

StillBored wrote at 2020-10-30 20:55:48:

Yes, "The Hidden World" by Fire Maple Games are probably more appropriate for a younger audience, my kids played that game around that age.

ballenf wrote at 2020-10-30 22:00:04:

There's an Easter egg for anyone who's intro to Javascript was The Good Parts in the game. The game was a lot of fun. I played the mobile version on an iPad.

pygy_ wrote at 2020-10-30 23:28:26:

I learned recently that Crockford had been a colleague of the Thimbleweed Park core team at Lucasfilm Games.

Eric_WVGG wrote at 2020-10-30 18:28:46:

why not go with the classics? Tim Schaeffer somehow got the rights to his classics back from Lucasarts/Disney and has published remakes of Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango and even Full Throttle, and he has a new one that is very age-appropriate for your daughter called Broken Age. All the Monkey Island games are available in one for or another, and Ron Gilbert has a new-ish one called Thimbleweed Park.

There's also an "episodic adaptation" of King's Quest from 2015 that was surprisingly well-received.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Quest_(2015_video_gam...

indigochill wrote at 2020-10-30 21:38:17:

I loved "Pillars of the Earth" by Daedalic. Also Memoria, same company.

Wadjet Eye Games does more retro adventure stuff. Unavowed sits comfortably alongside old adventure game classics for me in terms of presentation and story. I've heard good things about their other games as well but haven't played them yet.

I wouldn't recommend Unavowed for a 7-year-old, though, as it can get quite dark.

paulryanrogers wrote at 2020-10-31 03:57:47:

Fair warning about the Daedalic games, they can be misogynistic. I've played a few and found the female characters too stereotypical.

blevs wrote at 2020-10-30 18:35:50:

The 2015 King's Quest is quite enjoyable. It's a great deal less obtuse than the adventure games of old, which is probably a good thing.

BorisTheBrave wrote at 2020-10-30 19:53:51:

I liked the Deponia series, which has a similar look and comedy tone to Monkey Island 3.

However, I wouldn't recommend it for a 7yo. The puzzles are a bit tough, and the protagonist is a complete asshole (for comic effect, of course).

bastardoperator wrote at 2020-10-30 19:00:14:

I still think Sierra created some of the best games that have ever been made. If I saw a Sierra logo on a game as a kid, I knew I wanted it and I knew it would be quality. Lots of interactions, puzzles, and outcomes especially compared to what I was playing on console. I still think about how I could have plotted my course on Codename Iceman more accurately. I miss these games, I miss the style, I miss the casual aspect of not being a button mashing or accuracy god which I am no longer.

stephankoelle wrote at 2020-10-30 16:37:46:

By accident I bought:

Conquests of the Longbow: The Legend of Robin Hood

[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquests_of_the_Longbow:_The_...

]

Didn't know what "an adventure game" is, at that time. So many good memories.

What a great game.

IggleSniggle wrote at 2020-10-30 17:49:45:

My perception has always been that that game was under-appreciated. Nice to run into a fellow appreciator. I think it's also the only DRM[0] I've ever encountered that was _a genuine pleasure to use_ (not that it would work today).

[0] - Conquests of the Longbow required you to use the book that came with it to look up lore like coats of arms, to identify plants by their leaves, find out about superstitions around gemstones, etc in order to solve the puzzles in the game. At the time, people generally pirated by passing around floppy disks, none of the kids pirating had access to xerox machines, and the information in the manual was obscure, so you really kinda needed to _have_ the manual. But if you _did_ have it, it almost felt like a natural part of the game, and the information was fun to learn. Of course, now you can easily find it online:

http://www.sierrahelp.com/Documents/Manuals/Conquests_of_the...

sickcodebruh wrote at 2020-10-31 03:54:17:

Wing Commander made you look up ship schematics to answer trivia. I was maybe 10 years old and got a copy from the son of a family friend but he only gave me photocopies of a few of the pages, so it sometimes took a while before I could get in!

robertlagrant wrote at 2020-10-30 21:31:06:

The BBC game Exile had a "novella" that came with it - the story of how things came to be before the player arrives. The copy protection had you look up a page number, line number, word number to proceed. Fun stuff. (I just found the text!

http://inventivity.co.uk/exileami/novella.htm

) (And the game!

http://bbcmicro.co.uk//jsbeeb/play.php?autoboot&disc=http://...

)

In fact, how they squeezed what they did out of the BBC B is amazing.

jessaustin wrote at 2020-10-30 19:13:13:

I definitely encountered other games for which you had to look up stuff in the manual, and maybe it wasn't done as well because I always hated it.

hnick wrote at 2020-10-31 03:58:05:

I enjoyed it for Ultima VII, where the manual was written as a holy book / biography of the main religious figure (antagonist) of the setting. You needed to answer questions from the book to be allowed out of the starting town.

nitrogen wrote at 2020-10-30 20:10:26:

I think in King's Quest it was looking up some specific code word in a random grid or something, before it would let you launch a boat?

npongratz wrote at 2020-10-30 20:44:39:

King's Quest 5's copy protection (floppy version only) was enforced with a requirement to use a magic wand to cast a "spell" at various points in the game, where the "spell" is a series of letters that the player matches to symbols in the printed manual. Launching the boat was one of the points in the game where this was required.

https://kingsquest.fandom.com/wiki/Crispin%27s_wand#Behind_t...

IggleSniggle wrote at 2020-10-30 21:03:27:

Yup, CotL was uniquely well done.

stephankoelle wrote at 2020-10-30 20:25:44:

Loved that part too, was really confusing at first, because I was not aware that the manual might have a use at all.

I think the files are on the game creators webpage, there was even a photo of her at the back of the box.

ndesaulniers wrote at 2020-10-31 00:07:53:

One of my favorite youtube channels, Metal Jesus Rocks, had an interesting episode or two about his time at Sierra and the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmNCFtAlYN0

,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hyAYjM8Ssg

,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkQgL9s42WY

I have fond memories as a little kid playing Sierra games, so all that was news to me what happened to Sierra and where did they go.

Joeri wrote at 2020-10-30 18:00:20:

Here’s something I don’t understand: Sierra was a money-printing machine, earning easy profits and on a natural growth path. With a trajectory like that, why go public, why sell the business at all? There was nothing to gain really, whatever growth they would have gotten from going public and from the CUC deal (even if it had been on the up and up) they would have seen naturally. Gaming is not a winner takes all market, they had no need to grow more quickly.

drewwwwww wrote at 2020-10-30 18:01:04:

this subject is covered at length in the article.

projektfu wrote at 2020-10-30 21:27:10:

TL;DR Ken Williams had had a bad experience early on where the company was nearly bankrupt from a bad move, and he thought selling to a conglomerate would bulletproof the company, and was something of a duty to his shareholders. If the article is to be believed, they did so without being permitted to do due diligence on their buyer.

raptor99 wrote at 2020-10-30 21:33:26:

If you'd like some further/alternate reading on parts of this story, a guy has recently released part 1 of his story of Richard Garriott, Origin, and his Ultima series. The name of the book is Through the Moongate.

electrondood wrote at 2020-10-30 17:04:51:

It's fascinating to me that a company that became such a huge impact in the computer gaming industry started in, and kept a dev office in Oakhurst.

projektfu wrote at 2020-10-30 21:24:05:

A very interesting article, indeed, but wow was it edited by a human? Parts of it seemed located in the wrong section, and there were lots of howlers like a photo caption "Robert and Ken Williams".

mseepgood wrote at 2020-10-30 18:23:55:

Why was Sierra called "On-Line" if none of their games were online games?

jccooper wrote at 2020-10-30 19:08:30:

It started as a business software play called "On-line Systems". It seems doubtful that Ken Williams was considering actual networked software on Apple II at the time (though the machine could do it) but probably it sounded advanced and cool. In 1979 "on-line" would have been recognizably computery, but not mean much else to most people, who would never have seen a computer network.

Says Jimmy Maher, who should know, On-Line Systems was "a name fairly typical of the vaguely futuristic, vaguely compound, but essentially meaningless names (Microsoft, anyone?) that were so common in the era."

https://www.filfre.net/2011/10/ken-and-roberta/

jessaustin wrote at 2020-10-30 19:11:36:

"Online" used to mean "not batch-processed". Most of their games reacted immediately to player input, so in that sense they weren't batch programs.

This plausible explanation might not have anything to do with the actual reason for the name...

cperciva wrote at 2020-10-30 20:39:16:

_"Online" used to mean "not batch-processed"._

Computer scientists still refer to "online algorithms" as meaning "algorithms which process each input as it comes in". The obvious algorithm for "find the minimum element" is online for example, since you can stop at any point and say what the smallest you've seen so far is; however finding the _median_ takes more work (you need to maintain two heaps, vs. simply collecting all the data and sorting it at the end).

the__alchemist wrote at 2020-10-30 19:45:44:

Is it normal to be acquired using stock? From a naive perspective, it seems like a conflation of 1: Getting paid, and 2: Gambling on a stock. Was there part of the agreement that stated the Williams' couldn't immediately liquidate upon deal completion?

Aeolun wrote at 2020-10-31 03:44:19:

I think the opposite is more unusual. If you get aquired by Facebook you generally switch your own stock for FB’s one, at least in most of the deals I’ve heard of.

Much better for the company to keep their cash free.

kelnos wrote at 2020-10-30 20:51:35:

It's not unusual. Some acquisitions are all cash, some all stock, and some a mix.

krallja wrote at 2020-10-30 22:56:35:

There is usually a blackout period after acquisitions to prevent the new hires from quitting immediately.

smitty1e wrote at 2020-10-30 15:49:08:

Sierra On-Line's initials, SOL, proved prophetic.

yters wrote at 2020-10-30 16:42:46:

I wonder how much of Sierra's demise was due to CUC vs. just the change in gaming landscape. Compared to the early 90's adventure gaming is non-existent minus nostalgic kickstarters. Sierra may still be alive today, but it may be on the same shelf as Nancy Drew mysteries.

gryson wrote at 2020-10-30 17:11:54:

By the mid- to late-1990s, Sierra's publishing output was far more diversified than just adventure games. They owned a large number of subsidiary development companies (such as Dynamix, Impression, and Papyrus) that were creating games in a wide range of genres.

They also published a little-known game called Half-Life in 1998...

Aeolun wrote at 2020-10-31 03:55:51:

Half-Life came out just about when I started gaming, and was when I first really picked up on Sierra’s existence.

Then right after, they were just gone. No more new games with the Sierra logo (that I saw anyway)

microtherion wrote at 2020-10-30 23:43:12:

If not for the events in the article, we might have ended up with Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Portals.

yters wrote at 2020-10-30 17:58:44:

Great point. I forgot HL was originally Sierra. It seems they were able to adapt to the new market, so CUC can probably be blamed for their demise.

WorldMaker wrote at 2020-10-30 17:14:47:

The cause and effect is really tough to straighten out.

There's certainly an argument to be made that Sierra's demise was the final nail in adventure gaming and the genre might still be alive if Sierra themselves had survived (and/or if Roberta Williams was left with the budgets to keep making them). Sierra helped push the budgets of adventure games to the point where no one could compete with them (except maybe LucasArts, and LucasArts didn't seem interested in competing to the same costs) and then after setting that unreasonable market perspective of what a AAA adventure game "should" be, they died. Even today most of the controversy with the "nostalgic kickstarters" is that a Kickstarter can't approximate (adjusting for inflation) even a tenth of Sierra's final few adventure game budgets (much less a quarter to a half of LucasArts' last few).

mancerayder wrote at 2020-10-30 20:00:43:

I don't know, look at what sells well: massively multiplayer games, and FPSes. As I mentioned in a previous comment, there are exceptions, but as a rule it seems if you're a game developer you're more likely to make a reaction-based shooter or real time thing, versus a subjectively-paced adventure game with point and click puzzles like Sierra or LucasArts games were.

It might be gaming culture changed as consoles got big and more people got interested.

jnurmine wrote at 2020-10-30 21:05:09:

It would be awesome to have the old Sierra games like King's Quest, Police Quest, Space Quest, etc. re-born as first-person adventures with photorealistic graphics.

WorldMaker wrote at 2020-10-30 23:08:20:

It's not a zero sum game, however, as players typically buy from a variety of genres (sometimes in the same purchase) and play a large variety of genres over their lives.

It's a bit like saying that Hollywood should never make another romcom because all the blockbusters are superhero movies. While there are some crazy enough in Hollywood to suggest exactly that sort of thing, romcoms _aren't_ generally directly competing for superhero dollars (usually; there are some films that some suggest are superhero romcoms), and exist just fine alongside them. It's not likely for a romcom currently to be considered a blockbuster or to be budgeted or pitched as such, but it's also not impossible, and it certainly doesn't mean that the romcom as a genre is dead because it generally won't be a "summer tentpole blockbuster" any time soon (no matter how much clickbait editorials want to disagree on that).

It's probably unlikely for an adventure game to again be that "summer tentpole blockbuster", and I'm of the opinion that they were only "summer tentpole blockbusters" very briefly under the reign of Sierra in part because of the Williams' and Sierra's reign, because they managed to make it so, in budget and in attitude. Now that the blockbusters are FPSes and such, people are still disappointed and generate so much vocal controversy when kickstarters are merely aiming to build "romcoms on a romcom budget" adventure games and can't afford the summer blockbuster spectacle that Sierra did at its peak. That's what I think "killed" the genre and keeps it "dead", far more than the competition with other genres or some "shift in gaming culture".

(And yeah, I've seen and reject the arguments that gaming culture as it grew mainstream grew a lot less "intellectual" as the computer and consoles went from being niche things only owned by "smart" people to everyone could own one to everyone did own at least one. First of all, that's just terribly reductive and generally far too dismissive of the average game player. Second of all, there's plenty of evidence the other direction: Ask a hardcore "twitch" gamer some day about minutia in Destiny 2 or Dark Souls or WoW and be prepared for flow charts and long detailed narrative digressions and spreadsheets full of math and raid puzzle solving. Talk to the gamers still pouring hundreds of hours in lovingly complicated simulations like Civilization 6. The "intellectual pursuits" in games never went away; some of it dispersed and migrated and changed shape, a lot of it is still around almost unchanged in some genres like simulation that managed to successfully curb expectations and resize budgets as fashions shifted.)

kelnos wrote at 2020-10-30 20:56:03:

I think it's interesting that the development team wanted to turn King's Quest VIII into an RPG, despite Roberta Williams' attempts to direct them back toward the adventure genre.

As much as I look back on the adventure genre with a lot of fondness, it's definitely _looking back_; it's a pretty tiny part of the market these days.

mancerayder wrote at 2020-10-30 19:57:39:

Almost everything is a FPS or multiplayer... I mean all the big budget releases. Cyberpunk and Wasteland III are exceptions, as is Divinity OS and games like that. My theory is people want reaction-time games versus think-and-do games.

Or maybe I'm old and don't like the reaction-based (and certainly not multiplayer) games anymore.

Aeolun wrote at 2020-10-31 04:43:20:

> I'm old and don't like the reaction-based (and certainly not multiplayer) games anymore.

I still like them, but I have no time to train myself every afternoon and evening any more, so they’re mostly exercises in getting shot and/or killed all the time.

lgl wrote at 2020-10-30 23:34:58:

Is Cyberpunk really an exception though? Isn't it an FPS in an open-world environment just like most big budget releases? Like GTA, Watch Dogs, Tomb Raider, The Witcher, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, etc, but with a cyberpunk theme instead?

All previews and gameplay bits I've seen are basically just like those games and with nothing really truly unique or new except for the cyberpunky environment. I'm hoping for maybe a fantastic one-of-a-kind story that will make it justice but with all the hype around it, if it doesn't end up becoming the best thing since sliced bread, I'm afraid it may end up being a big disappointment, although I hope I'm wrong.

nottorp wrote at 2020-10-30 23:09:30:

Stop looking at AAAs and get yourself some indies.

Current Halloween sales are a good time to get 10 titles for $50 or something like that. If you look at the descriptions/reviews you're likely to like at least 2-3 out of the 10.

Shivetya wrote at 2020-10-30 18:24:24:

If you want to read up on Cendant and the fraud that was this [0] is a good story on the subject. This covers CUC and HFS (Hospitality Franchise Services) and shows how that merge uncovered the dirty accounting at CUC

[0]

https://www.econcrises.org/2016/11/29/cendant-corporation/

autarch wrote at 2020-10-31 01:07:11:

This is a great article, except for the parts where it intimates that Sierra games were good. While their games _were_ beautiful technological marvels, the design of most of the games (especially Roberta's) was just so incredibly bad. The games are some of the worst I've ever played in terms of actual gameplay.

Jimmy Maher at The Digital Antiquarian (

https://www.filfre.net/

) has written a fair bit about their games and the design issues with them, as well as their place in gaming history.

TwoBit wrote at 2020-10-31 03:59:43:

The massive popularity of many of those games proves you wrong by example.

autarch wrote at 2020-10-31 04:06:41:

So popularity = good design? That's a weird assertion.

Like I said, they were technological marvels, and I think people bought them because of that. I do wonder how many people who purchased them actually finished them.

nicolas_t wrote at 2020-10-31 01:24:41:

While I like Jimmy Maher's writing, I would say that he's rather biased in the way he describes those games and it's a matter of opinion.

And there are a lot of great games from Sierra: Conquest of the longbow, the ecoquest serie (aimed at a younger public), Quest of Glory, Leisure Suit Larry (but then I played that as a teenager) and yes I'd say King's Quest 6 & 4.

autarch wrote at 2020-10-31 01:33:10:

I wouldn't call him "biased". He has a strong opinion, but it's not based on nothing nor is it a product of some sort of ulterior motive. He has a strong opinion about these games that I agree with.

I had a C64 growing up so I didn't really play any of the Sierra games til I had a PC in college, and I remember feeling really confused about why people liked them so much. They felt unplayable and frustrating to me.