The F I D O N E W S Volume 18, Number 52 24 Dec 2001 +--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | |The newsletter of the | | Fido, Fidonet and dog-with-diskette are | | | FidoNet community. | | US Registered Trademarks of Tom Jennings| | | | | San Francisco, California, USA | | | ____________| | | | | / __ | Crash Netmail Articles To: | | | / / \ | Editor@1:1/23 (1-972-562-8064) | | | WOOF! ( /|oo \ | Frank Vest@1:124/6308 | | \_______\(_| /_) | or E-Mail (attach) To: | | _ @/_ \ _ | fidonews@sbcglobal.net | | | | \ \\ | | | | (*) | \ ))| Editor: Frank Vest | | |__U__| / \// | Deputy-Editor: Lawrence Garvin | | ______ _//|| _\ / | | | / Fido \ (_/(_|(____/ | Newspapers should have no friends. | | (________) (jm) | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ Copyright 2001 by Fidonews Editor for Fidonews Globally. Table of Contents 1. [ FOOD FOR THOUGHT ] ..................................... 1 2. [ INSIDE ] ............................................... 2 The Fidonews at a Glance ................................. 2 3. [ GENERAL ARTICLES ] ..................................... 3 Concerned Voices ......................................... 3 A silly & unrealistic look at geographical exemptions .... 4 The Rougue Region ........................................ 6 Introduction to Following the Z1C ........................ 9 4. [ EDITORIAL ] ............................................ 13 It's an Anarchy Killing? ................................. 13 5. [ FIDONET WEB PAGE REVIEWS ] ............................. 17 Region 15 Web page ....................................... 17 Region 53 Web page ....................................... 17 6. [ OL'WDB'S COLUMN - WARREN BONNER ] ...................... 19 "'Tis THE SEASON..." ..................................... 19 7. [ FIDONET NOTICES ] ...................................... 20 New User Flags ........................................... 20 8. [ HUMOR IN A FIDO VEIN ] ................................. 21 The Fidonet Political Data Base .......................... 21 The Zone 1 Inquisition Part 1 ............................ 22 9. [ COMIX IN ASCII ] ....................................... 26 Merry Christmas to those that observe it ................. 26 10. [ CLEAN HUMOR & JOKES ] ................................. 27 TRUISMS .................................................. 27 11. [ SPECIAL INTEREST ] .................................... 29 Nodelist Stats ........................................... 29 12. [ TODD COCHRANE'S FIDONET SOFTWARE LISTING ] ............ 31 Fidonet Software List .................................... 31 13. [ JOE JARED'S FIDONET BY INTERNET ] ..................... 35 Fidonet-related sites .................................... 35 14. [ FIDONEWS INFORMATION ] ................................ 41 How to Submit an Article ................................. 41 Credits, Legal Infomation, Availability .................. 42 FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 1 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ FOOD FOR THOUGHT ] ================================================================= "A hangover is the wrath of grapes." ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 2 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ INSIDE ] ================================================================= The Fidonews at a Glance Chris Cranford Joins us in the "General Articles" with "Concerned Voices" which addresses the R12 Independent listing of Dale Ross and the "RVIA" flags. Frank Vest give us "A silly & unrealistic look at geographical exemptions.. or not?" Also joining us is Philip Lozier with "The Rougue Region", his view on Region 12, Policy 4 and more. Dale Ross drops by to give us a look at some Seen-By stuffing in his article "Introduction to Following the Z1C". The editorial this week?? "It's an Anarchy Killing". You decide. :-) In the "Fidonet Web Page Reviews", we have the Region 15 and the Region 53 sites. Check both of these out. Warren Bonner give us his "Tis the Season" wish to all of us in Fidonet. In the "Fidonet Notices" section, you will find an announcement of some new Nodelist flags. In the "Humor in a Fido Vein", Frank Vest gives us a look at "*The Fidonet Political Data Base", while Dale Ross tries his hand at some humor titled "The Zone 1 Inquisition Part 1", based on a Monty Python skit. ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 3 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ GENERAL ARTICLES ] ================================================================= Concerned Voices Chris Cranford 1:379/0 Charlotte Area Net There have been a series of events that have transpired in Zone 1 over the last few weeks that, to say the least, has caused a rising concern with sysops across multiple regions. A lot of debate was centered around the R12IN listing that was given to Dale Ross. This raised concerns with the Z1C and the R18C. Public statements were made by both the Z1C and the R18C that make me believe they would be willing to alter the submitted segments of those *Cs in order to satisfy their interpretation of the FidoNet policy document P4. According to the Z1C, the reasons presented for the R12IN listing did not satisfy her biased requirements in order for Dale to maintain this listing. Therefore, in the last distributed Zone 1 nodelist, this R12IN listing was removed by the Z1C. Furthermore, the R18C made public statements that Dale would no longer be dual listed and questioned Dale on whether he'd be willing to relinquish his Net379 node number in order to maintain his R12IN status. Therefore, not only do I see a Z1C manipulating submitted nodelist entries; I also see a RC willing to do the same. Now, as if this wasn't enough fuel to add to the fire, Janis publicly announces that she will no longer be accepting segments that contain the MRVIA and RVIA flag-sets. Based on immediate uprising of her decision, she decided to allow an additional week for *Cs to make whatever necessary segment changes to prevent any risk in nodelist processing. Based on non-public conversations with the R18C, I have chosen to comply with his demands in order to not put other R18NCs segments in jeopardy of not being processed. But what I fail to understand is why these user flags must be removed from the nodelist? What harm are they causing? And if that wasn't enough, should I had left them in, the R18C would have passed my segment with an A+ as usual onto Janis'. The only problem would be if she failed the regional segment.... Over all these political issues, the harm that is being inflicted on FidoNet is far greater than the issues that I've listed above. These are just a few tips on that sharp iceberg that is harboring its way through Zone 1. I ask, when is it going to stop? People continue to state that FidoNet is a hobby. If FidoNet is a hobby, how can a hobby be enjoyful and fun when *Cs are continuously shoving P4 into the eyes of those who even some what oppose or interpret that document in a different fashion. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 4 24 Dec 2001 As Zone 1 continues to shrink, I ask ... What does the Z1C or the RCs plan to do in order to avoid the inevitable? Those who have devised easy methods to attract sysops into Zone 1 are being condemned because they're bringing value back into FidoNet ... Why? Is it jealously? It is certainly possible. Take a look at www.region18.info ... "If you can't beat them, why not join them" ... right Ross? My point is, enuff is quite simply enuff. I'd like to see some positive actions from the R18C and the Z1C in order to improve FidoNet instead of driving it into the ground. Happy Holidays! ----------------------------------------------------------------- A silly & unrealistic look at geographical exemptions.. or not? By Frank Vest 1:124/6308 There was a Node in a Net in a Region in a Zone. The Node number was his very own. Good grief! That sounds like something Dr. Seuss would write. :-)) Anyway; The Node wanted, for some reason, a Node number in another Region in the Zone while keeping the Node number in the current Region. While this would not be a problem to do, a simple matter of the RC adding the Node to the Nodelist, it is against Policy to have the same Person in two different geographical Regions, or Zones or Nets for that matter. At least on a permanent basis. Geography as put forth in Fidonet Policy was the problem. Let's look at geography. What is it? In relation to the dictionary, it is "The science that describes the surface of the Earth." It is also "The natural aspect, features, etc., of a place or area." In Fidonet, a Zone, Region or Net is/could be the natural aspect or feature of Fidonet. Maybe this is unrealistic, but humor me. :-) It is said that an Internet address is a location and has nothing to do with geography. A Fidonet address, then, should have nothing to do with geography. In reality, an Internet address is more than an address. It is a "phone number" of sorts. One can "dial" an Internet address and connect to the machine at that address. To "dial" a Fidonet address will connect you to nothing.... well, it might connect you to something, but what? Probably not what or who you wanted. :-)) The Fidonet address is a location. It is geographical in the sense that it gives a location of where that node resides within that land of Fidonet. The Internet address does this as well for the Internet. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 5 24 Dec 2001 The Fidonet address, however, can not be dialed with success unless it is translated via some means to a number that can be used to connect. That is what the Nodelist does. Without the Nodelist to translate, xx:yyyy/zzzz means little as far as "dialing" or making a connection goes. On the other hand, 192.168.0.1 is a valid connection number. Yes, I know that 192.168.0.1 is not used as an address on the Internet. It's just an example, ok. What do we have so far? Internet address = connectivity Fidonet address + Nodelist = connectivity What's the problem? Why can't a Fidonet Node have more than one address? The Internet allows this, right? This, in reality, would not be such a problem if it were only one Node. It would be little or no problem if the Node wanted to be removed from the current Net in that Region and moved to another Region as a Regional Independent or to another Net. As it happened, the Node wanted a Node number in one Region's Net while having an Regional Independent number in another Region. The question is, `why not allow this?' After all, geography is not an issue as far as connection is concerned in today's Internet world. An Internet address has no value in geography, why should a Fidonet address? Technically, I see no problem with this. Let's throw some (non)reality in this formula that has been so long in building. Reality, or non-reality, can really mess up a world. :) The reality is that in the Internet world, one is allowed as many addresses as desired if one is willing to pay for them. Technically, there is no reason not to allow this. Pay and desire are key here. The reality is that in Fidonet, one should be allowed to have as many addresses as desired. Technically, with the Nodelist to translate Fidonet addresses into "dialable numbers", there is no reason not to. They don't even have to be paid for. Pay and desire again are key here. Let's add one more little thing to this. Human nature. If you removed "pay" as a factor, most people would ask the Internet for as many addresses as they could dream up. "Pay" protects the Internet from this to some degree. Yes, I know that there are other factors. Let's deal with what we have here, shall we? Ok. Let's do a little unrealistic and silly math. One Sysop wants a Node number in each Net, Region and Zone in Fidonet. Why not?? There's no technical reason not to... Well, let's see how that adds up; FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 6 24 Dec 2001 There are 6 Zones, 70 Regions and hundreds of Nets. Let's use a small number for the Nets of, say, 300 minus 1 for the Node asking for the numbers. 1 Sysop x 6 zones = 6 Node numbers 1 Sysop x 70 Regions = 70 Node Numbers 1 Sysop x 300 Nets - 1 = 299 Node Numbers So; 6 + 70 + 299 = 375 Nodes in the Nodelist plus what is currently there. That's not too bad, right?? Let's go one more step. 300 Nets = an average of, say, 10 Nodes per net. 300 x 10 = 3000 Nodes I'll let you do the formula here. The grand total would be around 828000 Nodes numbers. Now, add to this formula that each Node could start his/her own Net up to the limit that Fidonet addressing allows. Better yet, figure the maximum number of addresses available in the "xx:yyyy/zzzz" addressing of Fidonet. Oh yes.. don't forget the .9999 for Point addresses. I don't even want to try that math. :-) Oh... alright... Somewhere around 9,898,020,099 assuming 99 Zones with 9999 Nets and 9999 Nodes and 0 Points, If I haven't missed in the math. If I have, well... that's life. Ok... You're going to argue that "common sense" would win out, Sysops voting on allowing addresses would prevent this, we would never reach this many Node numbers, the *Cs would prevent it and other things. Well... Common sense in many cases isn't common, the *C are claimed to be only "Clerks" under the Nodes and, adding apathy in to the formula, if someone wanted to add a Net or Region with his/her friends in it and a vote was taken, most likely, the only voters would be the person and his/her friends. Guaranteed addition of Net or Region... maybe both or more... and isn't the reason for having an address pool in the Internet because the Internet is running out of addresses? Oh heck! Let's do it! I want to see a Pentium bog down processing a 20 gig Nodelist. :-)) Wanna turn your Cray into a XT? Join Fidonet. :-))) ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Rougue Region Philip Lozier 1:267/169 As I watch the debates go on concerning the removal of the RC12, I FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 7 24 Dec 2001 can't help but be amazed at the reactions to this by many, and the complete blindness of those who fail to see the simplicity of the issue. What I see from the folks who are against this removal are a bunch of personal opinions not related to policy at all. There is no place for those "opinions" when viewing an action of this nature, as it is clearly defined within the policy itself. Many have said that policy needs to be modified, and I would agree with this, however, policy should not be changed to the drastic degree that many would like IMO. I have many views on this, but it is a whole different issue. Let me, before I go any further, state that I am not opposed to the allowance of out of net, or region, listings if there is a good technical reason for it, and if proper procedure is followed in having the listing agreed to by all involved, and approval is made by the ZC. This is absolutely NOT the case here. R12 has a long history of defying Policy4 and trying to do whatever it damn well pleases. Recently, as is evident by the issue at hand, they have simply taken one step to far, and got their toes stepped on for it... It was felt that it would be just fine and dandy to go ahead and list another node that was listed elsewhere without consulting anybody at all. The ZC got wind of this, and cried foul, and told R12 that they could not do this any longer. From what I understand, the response of the RC12 was to mark the node on hold (which still in no way solved an illegitimate listing), send a response to the ZC of the effect that R12 has their own interpretation of P4, and to immediately list EVEN MORE nodes in a similar fashion. To top it off even further, the RC12, to my understanding, further issued a defiant public statement in which the offer was made to list ANY node, from anywhere, within R12, wether they were listed elsewhere or not. How can an RC take actions like these, and NOT expect to be removed? The question has been issued as to if the ZC had a right to do this... YUP. Policy supports it. ANY RC is "responsible" to the ZC: 1.2.8 Top-down Organization. Checks and Balances. For example, a Regional Coordinator is responsible to the Zone Coordinator for anything that happens in the region. From the point of view of the Zone Coordinator, the Regional Coordinator is completely responsible for the smooth operation of the region. The above clearly states that the RC is answerable to the ZC. For those who claim otherwise, they probably think the sky is red, and need a new prescription for their eyeglasses as well. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 8 24 Dec 2001 Many say the geographical clauses need to be changed... why? If a node, be it ION or not, lives in say Chicago, if the net in Chicago is able to provide them a proper feed, then what good reason would they have to list elsewhere? Just to be different? If there is no local net, why can't they still lit within their "proper" region. It makes no sense. The fact is that this is a geographical issue, and geography is well defined in P4, and until changed, stands as is. Without spelling it all out, we know what it says... wether you like it or not is irrelevant. The most relevant part here clearly says that network membership is based on geographical or other purely technical rationale. It is not based on personal or social factors. The exemptions portion clearly state that an exemption is NOT a right, and is not permanent. It further states that in the "exceptional" case where an exemption is allowed, it MUST be agreed upon between the ZC and the RC's (note the plural) involved. Again, this is not the case here. The RC12 clearly defied these portions of policy as if they had never existed, and never even consulted the ZC, or any other RC involved. In doing so, it would appear to me that R12 was acting as a rougue region that lives outside of policy, and with no consideration for the rest of FidoNet whatsoever. This lack of consideration for Fidonet as a whole is a continuous thing. While some may say "well their attracting new nodes, why shouldn't they reap the rewards", I would say, that if they are attracting new nodes, then they are doing what they are supposed to. They are also supposed to refer these nodes to the proper network or region that they belong in. If they were truly acting on the best interest of Fidonet, they would be more than happy and willing to do it the right way, and help other portions of FidoNet grow, but it appears that they are only self serving, and that there actions of node snatching are no more reputable or proper than the actions of those who would hijack an echo to serve their own purposes. Getting right down to if the ZC had the right to remove RC12, I submit my final portion of policy quote: 6 Zone Coordinator Procedures 6.1 General If a Zone Coordinator determines that a Regional Coordinator is not properly performing the duties outlined in section 5, a replacement should be found. The Zone Coordinator is responsible for reviewing and approving any geographic exemptions as described in section 5.6. Sky still red? Clearly the ZC has the right to remove the RC. Clearly the RC12 should have consulted the ZC about any geographic exemptions. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 9 24 Dec 2001 Clearly the RC12 defied the ZC publicly, and CLEARLY the RC12, while capable of doing so, REFUSED to perform her duties as described by policy, and even more clearly, was fully justified in being removed. I am pretty confident on my position here, as a vote has been being taken around here as wether to back or condemn the removal. So far, though it -may- change, the flow seems towards backing the removal. Why would it be any other way? If rougues are allowed to run around FidoNet and do anything they please, and get away with it without any level of accountability, then only chaos can follow. It will be then that all levels of even the loosest form of organization will be lost, and the true demise of FidoNet starts to unfold. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Introduction to Following the Z1C There are several issues that surround our Current Z1C that I will be writing about in coming editions of FidoNews as time permits. Some of my writings will be articles that will attempt to explain problems from my point of view. There will also be comic relief skits that have been put together for tension relief. They also represent some of the events that my articles will cover. Most of the comic relief skits are based on Monty Python skits and Python type humor. So to fully understand them you might want to check out the echo MONTE and ask questions :-). MONTE is an echo for the discussion of the funniest troupe to ever grace this planet. Dale Ross 1:379/1 Scene 1: The Z1C and Z1EC Seenby stuffing event Some of you reading this article are already aware of Seenby-gate. However, I realize that many sysops do not read the Zone 1 echoes because of the bad blood they contain. Those sysops get their information here in FidoNews or from debates that spill over into the echoes that they are be reading. The key players: FidoNet Z1EC: Foxy Ferguson FidoNet Z1C: Janis Kracht The Z1EC is the editor and primary distributor of the "Official" Zone 1 Echomail routing chart, ROUTELST.nnn. At least that is what the Z1C and Z1EC call it, the "Official" list. I am not going to go into every detail of every battle that led up to Seenby-gate. After earlier conflicts between Foxy and several Tier 1 Hubs from the Z1B over her handling of ROUTELST.nnn, it was suggested that an alternate routing list might be produced. Janet Kracht warned John Souvestre against the production of an alternate routing list. Her statement was perceived as a threat and she was advised of that fact. She was asked multiple times to clarify FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 10 24 Dec 2001 her statement and she refused to do so. Here is her statement: +++ MESSAGE HEADER+++ From: JANIS KRACHT To: JOHN SOUVESTRE Date: 2/11/2001 11:14 PM Subject: Open Letter Echo: Z1_Routing +++MESSAGE HEADER+++ Quote from Janis: "And now you are threatening to create another routelist? I'll tell you what. If you don't drop this problem you have with Foxy and truly try to work with her, and if you don't stop threatening to create another routelist, you may find your Z1B left in the dust." Later she made the following comment: +++ MESSAGE HEADER+++ From: JANIS KRACHT To: JOHN SOUVESTRE Date: 2/12/2001 3:41 PM Subject: Open Letter Echo: Z1_Routing +++ MESSAGE HEADER+++ Quote from Janis: "I think that creating another ERN Routelist will cause the Z1B more problems than you can imagine." After these messages many of us were left with the feeling that the Z1C would try to take some kind of action against the Z1B and anyone friendly towards the Z1B. Because of the issues with the Z1EC and the Z1C, ultimately several sysops approached me about an alternate routing list. They were interested in forming a volunteer group, aka ERN Charting Committee to address routing issues. Up until that point none of these sysops had discussed with me or any other member of the Z1B the possibility of creating an alternate list. The mission of this group was to look into the possibility of producing an alternate routing chart for Zone 1. Eventually an alternate routing list was produced and it was hatched into Z1_REC, the same file distribution echo that ROUTELST.nnn is hatched. The very next week the Z1EC hatched ROUTELST.112. Only this time several FidoNet Zone 1 node numbers were added to the Seenby lines of the tic file. This prevented these systems, and any peer connection links of these systems from receiving ROUTELST.112. Not a single system that was added to the Seenby line connected directly to the Z1EC for any kind of traffic. That very same week the weekly posting or ROUTELST.nnn to the message echo Z1_ROUTING stopped. Obviously both of these events were attempts to keep routing information out of the hands of people that were considered to be "not friendly" to the Z1C and Z1EC. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 11 24 Dec 2001 I learned that ROUTELST.112 had been hatched but did not arrive at my system. I contacted my upstream link for files, Bob Juge @1:106/2000 about the problem. He acknowledged that the problem was upstream of him but did not elaborate on what the problem might be. After checking with another Z1B hub, Todd Cochrane (1:10/345) it was confirmed that my node number, 1:379/1 and several other node numbers were in the tic file that he received. Node numbers 4-5 hops away from the Z1EC where also in the tic file. There were even systems that did not normally receive that file echo that were also listed in the tic file. The following nodes were added: Seenby 1:229/438 Darrell Salter Seenby 1:229/604 Stewart Honsberger Seenby 1:229/731 Phil Simpson Seenby 1:249/116 Carl Austin Bennett Seenby 1:250/525 Lesley-Dee Dylan Seenby 1:379/1 Dale Ross Seenby 1:2404/201 Ruth Argust Seenby 1:2624/306 David Calafrancesco The result of this stuffing of node numbers was that the Z1C did little more than slap the Z1EC on the wrist. The Z1C continues to support the Z1EC. The Z1EC AND Z1C have never explained what happen nor have they apologized for these actions against fellow FidoNet sysops. The Z1EC has attempted to blame this problem on an error in processing and some multi-computer configuration that she has setup. Third hand information suggests that she entered the node numbers into a new software package to test that package and meant to remove the numbers before the real file was hatched. The question we have about that explanation: Why were these specific node numbers used for the test? Everyone one of the nodes listed was unfriendly to the Z1C or Z1EC for one reason or another. It is very obvious that this was a deliberate act by the Z1EC and possibly the Z1C based on her previous threats. Some of us believe that this was simply the Z1C carrying out the threats that she had issued a few months earlier. The Z1EC has several people running interference for her, most notably Ross Cassell (1:18/500) and of course our esteemed Z1C. There are several other people helping but their roles to date have been of a much lower profile and do not warrant mentioning at this time. I mention the players because you will read about them in the comedy skit that I have submitted with this article. As new players are introduced in future skits I will detail that person's role so that you can get a better understanding of the players. There are two people that are publicly known to be associated with the group producing the alternate routing list. Bobby Queen 1:379/5 is the public spokesperson for the group. I provide a point address for the group to send NetMail queries about routing information and I provide technical "support" concerning routing issues. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 12 24 Dec 2001 I may write another article about other events surrounding this routing chart in the future. The purpose of that article will be to give you a better understanding of what they do. However, the intention of this article is to focus on the Seenby stuffing. These events have generated several compilations of Monty Python skits to fit the situation(s). This is the first of those skits. They were all written as a method of releasing tension over the situation. We went through several names before we hit on these. We figure they are more acceptable to all readers than some of the other proposed names. As I was touching this skit up months after originally writing it, a new name has come to the surface and I have added it in here. ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 13 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ EDITORIAL ] ================================================================= It's an Anarchy Killing? By Frank Vest 1:124/6308 Far be it for me to claim any knowledge of Anarchy. My interest is due mainly to claims that Fidonet is/was supposed to be an anarchy and that Tom Jennings is/was an anarchist. With the above in mind, I felt that a wee bit of study should be invested, therefore, I have done a little reading on the subject of anarchy. Probably as much as some have done regarding Policy4 prior to rejecting or using it. Maybe more. :) Ok... So what is Anarchy?? (Before going on, I would advise the tobacco and brewing industry to double production immediately The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) and MADD (Mothers against Drunk Drivers) should go into "alert" status as well as any other entities affected, as there is going to be an increased need in the areas covered by them.) From the definitions I read, anarchy is "no rule" or "without rule". What!!! NO RULES!?!?!? We can't function without rules! This is insane!! Where's my cigarettes! I need a beer!! Where's my car keys???! I need to go to the store for more cigarettes and beer!! (insert sound effects as desired) Easy now... easy... Um.. er... Would someone please help these poor readers back to their chair in front of the computer?.... Thanks! :) Now, kind readers, please give your car keys to someone you can trust or put them away, take the 5 cigarettes out of your mouth, put the glass of whatever alcohol you are drinking down before you spill it on the keyboard again, clean the monitor screen, take a few deep breaths and relax..... Good... much better. :) Ok, let's continue. Anarchy is "without rule"... it is not "without RULES". Notice the difference? From my understanding, the belief is not being ruled over or by someone/group. "Rules" are allowed. In fact, rules will exist. Anarchy also seems to believe that a group of people will, if left alone, work out a system of "rules", or agreement(s), to accomplish whatever they need to accomplish. This, without the need for a person, or group, to tell them "how to", "what to", "when to" and such. IOW without force, coercion or rule. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 14 24 Dec 2001 The above can be accomplished via two methods. One is revolution. This can require coercion, and often, deception to get others to join in the action... unless the group is large enough to cause the revolution by itself. This can work, but can have the side effect of a need to be able to "enforce" the "anarchy" that has been fought for and won. If you note "enforce" and "anarchy", you can see that there is the real possibility that this can revert back to the same, if not a worse, state than what was fought for in the first place. The other is through cooperation, education and such. While this might take a long time and ultimately end in a revolution, the revolution would, IMHO, be more lasting in its intended effect. IOW, The larger the group that has the same views, the less the resistance needed and the less the enforcement needed to maintain the results. Of course, this could revert back, but wouldn't be as likely since most would be of like mind and belief. Whew! I'm glad that's over. :) With that behind us, let's press on and look at Fidonet. Fidonet is an anarchy? Well, I'll get into my humble opinions here and you can decide from them... or other means. Fidonet has a policy. Yes, I know it is old. I know it has been used wrongly and all the other arguments that go along as well. However, Fidonet is an anarchy in the respect that, for the most part, the Sysops that run the systems (computers) in Fidonet do as they please and _choose_ to be in Fidonet. The "_choose_" is important. If the choice to be part of Fidonet was made with full understanding and knowledge that there is a policy, then there should be little in the way of problems. If the choice was made without this understanding and knowledge, then someone did someone a disservice. Take that up with that person. The point is, The choice was made to join... the choice can be made to leave if desired. Anarchy. No force or coercion to stay. Your own free will. One other thing that anarchy seems to deal with is reality. While anarchy is "without rule" the reality is that there will be rules and rule. The difference is that in anarchy, the group agrees on the rules and the rule is by the group. No one person or group can rule over another. All are free to join or leave a group as desired or create a group.... without fear of persecution by the rest of the group(s). Any person can form another group if the group they are in doesn't "fit" what they believe. No one is forced to stay in Fidonet. No one is prevented from starting a new group outside of Fidonet. That much of Fidonet is anarchy. Once someone chooses to join Fidonet, they are subject to it's rules. The coercion and force are currently there. Policy is policy until policy is changed. How to change policy is written in policy. How to change policy to fit what the people want is written in policy and in anarchy. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 15 24 Dec 2001 Policy allows for change. It's hard to do. People don't want to change.... unless it is shown to be good, of benefit or something positive. As it currently stands, most of what I've seen in Z1 has been anything but positive. Arguing that anarchy is better by accusation, names being called, blame being laid (justified or not) and all other such are negative. Why would people want to change from a government enforced order to a anarchy when appearances are that both use the same thing to administer? Why change policy when the arguments to change are justified with the same political accusations that are used to justify not changing? Where is the positive? People aren't going to vote, ask for or try to change anything in such a situation. Why change? They have the same thing now, from all appearances. Yes, Policy4 was voted in by the, then, controlling parties. Yes, it's been forced upon Fidonet? That is not relevant to this. What is relevant is that this forced policy was, and is, accepted by Fidonet in general. Remember that one Zone dos not a Fidonet make. It is entrenched in Fidonet and a revolution by one Zone, much less a Region or Net, that makes up a small part of Fidonet isn't going to last. People, in general, don't want to change. A revolution, in definition, is the overthrow (removal) of one thing for another. Often times, more so with anarchy, there is a vacuum left by the revolution. This vacuum is often filled with the same, or a worse, government than what was removed by the revolution in the first place. Is anarchy a good thing? Yes, it can be. Can it be done in Fidonet? Yes, it can. Will it be done? I don't know. I don't believe it will be done until those that claim to be anarchist realize that they are barking up the wrong tree. I don't believe that it will happen without changing Policy4. I don't think that Policy4 will be changed by/with revolution or force. I think that the only way to change policy is to work within policy for a change. Not violently, not with force, but within what policy allows. Use policy to change policy. Use education to show the benefits. Remember, people don't want to change. This is even more true if the change from force is made with force. :-) Do I believe that Fidonet is an anarchy? Yes and no. Some of it is, some isn't. Reality? What Fidonet it is, it is. Until the groups in Fidonet can be convinced that anarchy is positive, good, of benefit and other such, full anarchy will not happen. I'm not sure this is possible in any reality to begin with. It is possible to have a group, or groups, that is/are anarchistic, but they will have to live within the current Fidonet and abide by it's rule until such time as enough are educated and join with them. Force, rebellion and other such acts will not accomplish this. IMHO, this is reality. I do believe that many of those in Fidonet that claim anarchy aren't and know little about anarchy. I do believe that I don't know all about it either. I do believe that, to some degree, I've read more on anarchy than some have read on Policy4. I do believe that my interpretation of what I have read may be as accurate as some interpretations of Policy4. :) FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 16 24 Dec 2001 I do believe that I have some references for those interested. :) http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~ctb/anarchy/ http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~ctb/anarchy/docs/consent.html Best regards, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 17 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ FIDONET WEB PAGE REVIEWS ] ================================================================= Region 15 Web Page By Frank Vest 1:124/6308 Where?: http://www.bobsplc.com/public/reg15/index.html This reporter may be a little prejudice in this review. I've always liked the desert areas of the U.S.A. New Mexico was, and still is, where I want to live. The background of the page is beautiful. Nice "sky blue" fade. Of course, there is the "Dog with Diskette" at the top. How else to tell it is a Fidonet page? :-) The title is a large font instead of a graphic. Nice in that it loads faster. Up front, this page tells you where the Region is located. If you look, there is a link for applying for a Node number. As you scroll down, there's a nice picture and a blurb telling who hosts the page and where the host is located. I'm not sure that this plug of a BBS is warranted, but it's not my page. :) We now come to the menu area. There are four links here. Dial-up BBS list in R15, telnet BBS in R15, Links to other Fidonet sites and a link for applying for a Node number in R15. The "Links to other Fidonet Sites" is a little sparse, but I'm sure that will come around in time. :) At the bottom of the page is a link to retrieve Policy 4 and some credits and copyright. All in all, a nice page. Some work yet to be done, obviously, but a good page. Good Fidonet web page surfing to you all, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------- Region 53 Web Page By Frank Vest 1:124/6308 Where: http://fido.bitsoft.ro/ FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 18 24 Dec 2001 To call this a Fidonet web page would be understating thing. This is more like a Fidonet world. The design looks like something you would see on a new site or something. It is well designed and organized. At the top is the header that announces what the site is about and gives location. Under that are options for member log in, search and topics. You can join, but it is not required. Down the left side are links to other parts of the site. The center is used for news article "snippets" to read and a link to read the article if it interests you. On the right side is an option to select your language, a "poll" area for voting and a log in option for members. I haven't explored this site in full, but from what I have looked at, it is impressive. The one thing I don't like is the "Dog with Diskette". The poor thing seems a little "squashed" to me. :) I would suggest that you take a look at this site. It's clean looking, well designed and organized. The site promotes the positive and give information. Very well done IMHO. Happy surfing, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 19 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ OL'WDB'S COLUMN - WARREN BONNER ] ================================================================= "'Tis THE SEASON..." From: Warren Bonner To be jolly, fa la la.. a la laaa... Way back when I was a kid, this season was my reason for being a 'good boy' all year! Hi De Ho Ho! This little elf has been working especially hard to bring the Snooze some Christmas cheer. It is not easy to get into that mood if I pay attention to the tensions generated in the echoes, even over a submitted article, a nodelisting or a routing flag! This year has been trying times for Fidonet. So today, instead of talking about the futility of the above as I originally had penned, I'm sending my warmest holiday wishes to each and every one of you. Our family has always celebrated the unique and special warm feelings that seem to fill the air in every room of our home with love. I'm especially grateful to God for the love I share with my wife Jannie, and our six children, and all of their children. We wish everyone good health, happiness and prosperity to all of you and your loved ones everywhere in the world. I pray for the safety and well being of our troops around the world, and wish they too could put their feet under their Mom's Christmas dinner table. Grateful for the bravery and courage of the Firemen and Firewomen who work to protect our homes and the Police who guard our safety with their own lives, and to the Paramedics emergency services that save so many lives. May this Holiday Season be filled with rapture and tranquility is my most sincere wish for all. May God bless America and may this Christmas day bring you and your family love, peace and happiness. To help to that end, below are some sites you and family may visit: http://www.noradsanta.org/ Children from around the world can follow Santa and his reindeer moving from global time zone to time zone. http://odin.aafes.com/mars/marsgram.asp Armed forces personnel and their families can exchange messages. http://www.reata.org/interview2.html What would it be like to talk with God? This touching presentation is visually stunning and offers a collection of life's lessons and ideas that anyone can learn from. Warmest Regards, Ol'wdb ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 20 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ FIDONET NOTICES ] ================================================================= New User Flags The following Nodelist flags have been announced for use by the International Coordinator. ************************* QUOTE ************************* MRVIA This flag should be used by the Network/Region Coordinator,Host, or Network/Region Echomail Coordinator to indicate the primary path for echomail routed netmail into the net/region. In a flag field of the nodelist the MRVIA flag would be used indicating the three dimensional node number of that node which will route the netmail to the network/region listed in the node number field for the nodelist on that line. There can be only one MRVIA flag for a network and only one for the region level. This flag is normally on the NEC or REC's nodelist entry. RVIA This flag should not be used by nodes whose routing path is covered by either Host routing or an Echo-Routed netmail path list maintained as each zone decides. It should, however, be used if no true routing data is available for a node. In a flag field of the nodelist the RVIA flag would be used indicating the three dimensional node number of that node which will route the netmail to the node listed in the node number field for the nodelist on that line. DRVIA This flag optionally may carry a :Z:net/node uplink primary. Specifically there is to be only one entry of this flag per region and it is used to designate the default region routing site for all nets in that region if no other route is known. It is applied to the primary use number of that node only. ************************ UNQUOTE ************************ ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 21 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ HUMOR IN A FIDO VEIN ] ================================================================= The Fidonet Political Data Base By Frank Vest 1:124/6308 It has come to my attention that there may be some people in Fidonet that just don't understand the Political Data Base that Fidonet politics uses. The below is based on a reply I made to a person that, I'm sure, didn't want to know this. :-) The Question (if you call it that) :-) I know very little about how fidonet politics work, so if I offend any one, it is unintentional. The Answer (if you call it that) :-) You've probably already offended someone. Simply not knowing is offensive to some. :) I'll offer a quick primer below for you to study with a grain of salt. :-) Politics in Fidonet are simple. The data base: Anything you write that offends someone, or even if it doesn't, will be entered into someone's data base. It will be cross referenced in every conceivable way. When you write a message from then on, that data base will be checked and if what you are writing is in any way different from what you wrote before, it will be thrown back in your face. Of course, you will keep a data base as well so that you can check it and hit back. The data base is maintained from the beginning of you joining Fidonet and is never deleted.... even if you leave Fidonet.... after all, you might come back. If you were known by someone prior to joining Fidonet, that data is already included in their data. Be sure to include your knowledge of them in your data. :) Now, don't make the mistake of not keeping a data base on your buddies. They may become your enemy some day and you'll need that data. Beside, you know they are keeping a data base on you. :) Use of data base: The use of the data base is rather simple. If someone writes a message that disagrees with you or if you don't like that person for some real or perceived wrong they did to you or your buddy, you consult your data base and use every message that they ever wrote and every action they ever took against them. NOTE: You can also do this just for the sake of starting something. :) FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 22 24 Dec 2001 Always enter the message you are replying to into your data base before you write your reply. That way it can be selectively recalled, twisted and spun into what ever you desire with additions from your data base. Data base rules: Never keep your data base in any form of hard copy. Keep it in your mind/memory. That way you can selectively remember. :) Add to and update your data base constantly. Additions can, and should, be from every message written by anyone in Fidonet.... Additions against others can and should come from messages written from other data bases. NOTE: It is not relevant that information from other data bases be accurate. Enter the data anyway.... especially if it is old data from someone IE: A quote of someone's past writing or some conjecture of/from someone. Final note: If you are new and don't have a data base on someone, insult them or something. That way you can gather data for your data base. ;-) Welcome to Fidonet. :-)) Regards, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Zone 1 Inquisition Part 1 By Dale Ross 1:379/1 This skit is loosely (OK tightly) based on Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition - Trouble at the Mill Skit Dale: Trouble in backbone Bobby: Oh no... what kind of trouble? Dale: One on't routelists gone owt skew on backbone Bobby: Pardon? Dale: One on't routelists gone owt skew on backbone Bobby: I don't understand what you are saying. Dale: One of the routelists has gone out askew on the backbone. Bobby: What on earth does that mean? Dale: /I/ don't know - Mr. Cochrane just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble in backbone that's all. I didn't expect a kind of Zone 1 Inquisition Snookums: NOBODY expects the Zone 1 Inquisition! Our chief weapon is FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 23 24 Dec 2001 surprise... stuffing and fear... fear and surprise. Our two weapons are surprise and fear... and ruthless stuffing. Our three weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless stuffing... and an almost fanatical devotion to P4. Our /FOUR/ ...no... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as surprise, fear.... I'll come in again. Dale: I didn't expect a kind of Zone 1 Inquisition Snookums: NOBODY expects the Zone 1 Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: surprise, fear, ruthless stuffing, an almost fanatical devotion to P4, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn! (to Cardinal Stuff-in-Such) I can't say it - you'll have to say it. Stuff-in-Such: What? Snookums: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...' Stuff-in-Such: I couldn't do that... Dale: I didn't expect a kind of Zone 1 Inquisition Stuff-in-Such: Er.... Nobody...um.... Snookums: Expects Stuff-in-Such: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Zone 1...um.. Snookums: Inquisition Stuff-in-Such: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Zone 1 Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect... Snookums: Our chief weapons are... Stuff-in-Such: Our chief weapons are...um...er... Snookums: Stuffing Stuff-in-Such: Stuffing and -- Snookums: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ...our chief weapons are stuffing...blah blah blah. Cardinal, read the charges. Crass: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against FidoNet. 'My old *C said follow the--' Stuff-in-Such: That's enough. (To Bobby) Now, how do you plead? FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 24 24 Dec 2001 Bobby: We're innocent Snookums: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Stuff-in-Such: We'll soon change your mind about that! Snookums: Surprise, fear, and a most ruthless-- (controls herself with a supreme effort) Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the tic file! Stuff-in-Such: You... Right! Tie them down! Snookums: Right! How do you plead? Bobby: Innocent. Snookums: Ha! Right! Cardinal, stuff a node number in the tic file. Stuff-in-Such: I… Snookums: I *know*, I know you can't. I didn't want to say anything. I just wanted to try and ignore your Crass mistake. Stuff-in-Such: I... Snookums: It makes it all seem so stupid. Stuff-in-Such: Shall I...? Snookums: No, just pretend for Fido's sake. Ha! Ha! Ha! Snookums: Now, ERN Charting Committee-- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess? Bobby: We don't understand what we are accused of. Snookums: Ha! Then we shall make you understand! Stuff-in-Such! Fetch...THE Hatching Program! Stuff-in-Such: Here it is, lord. Snookums: Now, ERN Charting Committee -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the Alternate routing list -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance. Bobby: We don't know what you're talking about. Snookums: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Hatch the FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 25 24 Dec 2001 file! ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 26 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ COMIX IN ASCII ] ================================================================= Have a * / \ Merry /* \ /. : *\ Christmas!!! /_ . ._\ / * \ / . . \ / * . . *\ / . * . : \ / : * * . \ And A Happy / . * . : \ /___ : . * ___\ / : . : . \ New Year!! / . : . *\ /* . : . .\ /. * . * : .\ /. : . : . * . \ /_____________________\ |___| ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 27 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ CLEAN HUMOR & JOKES ] ================================================================= TRUISMS... Love is grand. Divorce is a hundred grand. I am in shape. ..Round is a shape. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good. Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand. Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason. An optimist thinks that this is the best possible world.. A pessimist fears that this is true. There will always be death and taxes; however, death doesn't get worse every year. In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday. I am a nutritional overachiever. I am having an out of money experience. I plan on living forever. So far, so good. Practice safe eating - always use condiments. If marriage were outlawed, only outlaws would have in-laws. It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions. The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. Age doesn't always bring wisdom. Sometimes age comes alone. And this one is the real truth, so pay attention; You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stopped laughing. FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 28 24 Dec 2001 ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 18-52 Page 29 24 Dec 2001 ================================================================= [ SPECIAL INTEREST ] ================================================================= Nodelist Stats INPUT NODELIST FILE : NODELIST.355 File has a Date Stamp of : 12/21/2001 File Size (uncompressed) : 1172.38 KBytes. The Input Nodelist file has 10574 Nodes in it and a total of 13805 non-comment entries. The list has 6 Zones listed. 65 Region Coordinators listed. 487 Network Hosts listed. 733 Hubs listed. 364 DOWN Nodes listed. 895 PRIVATE Nodes listed. 681 HOLD Nodes listed. Administrative overhead = 1291 ( 12.21 %) PRIVATE NODES overhead = 895 ( 8.46 %) Baud Rate Summary (or, BPS, for the die-hard technocrats): 9600 = 9023 ( 85.33 %) (HST's = 191 or 2.12 % of the 9600 baud modems.) (CSP's = 1 or 0.01 % of the 9600 baud modems.) (PEP's = 14 or 0.16 % " " " " ) (MAX's = 0 or 0.00 % " " " " ) (HAY's = 2 or 0.02 % " " " " ) (V32's = 5071 or 56.20 % " " " " ) (V32B's = 591 or 6.55 % " " " " ) (V42's = 4864 or 53.91 % " " " " ) (V42B's = 640 or 7.09 % " " " " ) 2400 = 109 ( 1.03 %) 1200 = 6 ( 0.06 %) 300 = 467 ( 4.42 %) ---------------------------------------------------------- F_Req Flag Applicable Software Number of Systems --------------------------------------