F I D O N E W S -- Volume 15, Number 38 21 September 1998 +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | The newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: | | FidoNet community | "FidoNews" | | _ | +27-41-515-913 [5:5/23] | | / \ | | | /|oo \ | | | (_| /_) | | | _`@/_ \ _ | | | | | \ \\ | Editor: | | | (*) | \ )) | Henk Wolsink 5:7104/2 | | |__U__| / \// | | | _//|| _\ / | | | (_/(_|(____/ | | | (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. | | | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Submission address: FidoNews Editor 5:5/23 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | MORE addresses: | | | | submissions=> editor@fidonews.org | | | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | For information, copyrights, article submissions, | | obtaining copies of FidoNews or the internet gateway FAQ | | please refer to the end of this file. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Table of Contents 1. EDITORIAL ................................................ 1 2. GUEST EDITORIAL .......................................... 2 Conflict of Interest - both yours and mine ............... 2 3. LETTERS TO THE EDITOR .................................... 4 4. ARTICLES ................................................. 5 Zone 1 Echo Coordinator Election - ever again? ........... 5 5. WANTED ................................................... 7 Point system details wanted .............................. 7 6. NOTICES .................................................. 8 7. FIDONET BY INTERNET ...................................... 10 8. FIDONEWS INFORMATION ..................................... 14 FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 1 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= EDITORIAL ================================================================= Greetings, Is it not valid, that whatever happens in FidoNet world, some form of announcement is made in Fidonews? Is FidoNews not for _ALL_ the users and 'whoever'? The 'whoever' being whoever reads FidoNews! If so, than lets read what is happening in your Zone, no matter what. I have an interesting question, to which I have my own views, but hopefully the IC and/or ZCC or for that matter, anyone interested, can give a answer or two. Ofcourse, this may have been debated in the past, without me being aware of it. If such, my excuse for asking. Q. Is it not true, that when a message appears in _any_ one of the Echo's, it is 'public domain'? Please keep in mind, that when I refer to 'public domain' (PD), it is in reference to your editor to take such message from any echo, and publish it here in FidoNews. Lets have your views on the above, as it is an interesting aspect. Happy reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 2 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= GUEST EDITORIAL ================================================================= Conflict of Interest Douglas Myers It's been over 30 years since I took a journalism course, and it was at Penn State, a university more known for its linebackers than it's journalists. An ethical standard then, and still a good idea today, was for a writer to disclose any personal interest he may have in an article. I have submitted such an article for publication in this week's edition of Fidonews - a news piece concerning the Zone 1 Echo Coordinator election. You should know that I intend to run as a candidate if the office is to be determined by a sysop-level election. I don't plan to campaign at the moment figuring such activity is better reserved until the election is actually set, but I do plan to inform. That's my potential conflict of interest. Now let's discuss your conflict if you're a zone 1 sysop. There may not be another election for this position where the zone 1 sysops may vote directly. The reason, if I may paraphrase the analysis of one particularly eloquent writer in the ZEC echo, is that the last one sucked. I've briefly discussed the last election in the article itself, but here I'd like to focus on one of the more significant objections: In the last ZEC election, only about 6% of the sysops in zone 1 cast a ballot. Opponents of an election for this office say it's because sysops are too apathetic to vote. Proponents claim that the "grunt" sysops just didn't get the word about the election. The decision on how the ZEC position is to be filled rests in the hands of the Regional Echo Coordinator's Council. It's being decided right now, and there's still time for you, as a sysop, to have a voice in this decision. If you have an opinion right now, you need only to get it to your Regional Echo Coordinator (REC). If you don't know who he (or she) is, your own net's NEC or NC would be able to tell you. If you want to hear what others are saying about this election, or if you want to express yourself in an interactive setting, join the ZEC conference. ZEC (and all the other confereces mentioned in the article) are publicly available echos carried by the BACKBONE and FIDOSPINE and can be had wherever you get your echomail. In my opinion, the upcoming decision by the RECC goes beyond merely filling the ZEC position right now. The ZEC is the only zone 1 office to ever be decided by a vote in which all sysops were elegible to cast a ballot. It was an experiment, and if the RECC decides that the experiment was a failure, then it's unlikely that "grunt" sysops will ever cast a ballot for a zone 1 office again. So now we come to your own conflict of interest: if you've read this far, then you know what's going on. You know what's at stake, FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 3 21 Sep 1998 and you know what you can do about it. You can choose to act on it now, or simply let others make the decision for you. -- | Fidonet: Douglas Myers 1:270/720@fidonet.org | Internet: doug@mdtnbbs.com | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. | From Mdtn_BBS @mdtnbbs.com [ In the Heart of Three Mile Island ] ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 4 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= LETTERS TO THE EDITOR ================================================================= Hello Henk, congratulations upon being appointed Fidonews editor. Please feel free to publish this. I've started an e-mail list for anyone interested in discussing Fidonet. If you'd like to know more, or would like to subscribe, feel free to check out the link below. http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/fidonet-discussion Thanks, Ed Lee [Thanks Ed for your wishes. Henk.] ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 5 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= ARTICLES ================================================================= The Zone 1 Echo Coordinator Election Will there ever be another? Douglas Myers 1:270/720 The Zone 1 Echo Coordinator (abbreviated here as Z1EC or ZEC) is an obscure position, not often doing anything noticable to the average sysop. If you've never heard of the office, don't be embarrassed - the chances are that you're in good company. In fact, Zone 1 has spent much of the recent years without anyone doing this job at all. Why, then, is this office the most hotly contested in Fidonet? Why does this position dominate the interest of Fido's political activists? Why is this office so prominant (or notorious, of late)? The ZEC is basically an assistant to the Zone Coordinator, much the same as a Regional Echo Coordinator (REC) assists a Regional Coordinator (RC) and a Net Echo Coordinator (NEC) assists a Net Coordinator (NC). As the title implies, the specific duties of the ZEC are related to Fido's echomail. The ZEC is charged with acting as a Chairperson for the Regional Echo Coordinator's Council (RECC) and acting as a liason of sorts between the distribution services (Backbone, Fidospine, and others), the echo moderators, and the Echolist Keeper. The job description goes into more detail than I've summarized above, but the summary should serve to illustrate that the duties themselves would not inspire the passionate and long-lasting debate current with the Fido Politicos. What has fanned the coals of this interest into a raging fire is Bob Satti's decision, as Zone Coordinator, to transform the position of ZEC from an appointed position to an elected position. The last ZEC, Bob Kohl, became the first functionary in Fidonet to be elected in a zone-wide sysop-level election. But this may be the last time sysops at large in Zone 1 may ever have a direct vote in any election. Both the proponents and opponents of such elections agree that the last one was disappointing: 1. Only about 6% of Fido sysops cast a ballot in the election. This has been blamed on multiple causes, ranging from sysop apathy to insufficient publicity for the election. 2. The election itself was vocal and time-consuming, with confusion over the preferential voting system used... and the results were considered tainted by some over allegations of multiple votes by at least one individual. 3. The elected candidate did not complete his term. Instead, he removed from office by the RECC acting in conjunction with the ZC. Charges are too numerous to mention here, but left some with a distrust of further direct elections. FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 6 21 Sep 1998 As it currently stands, the future of direct sysop voting is being considered by the RECC and the ZC. An interim ZEC, Gary Gilmore, was previously appointed to conduct an election in the event that the ZEC could not complete his term. He has assumed the interim position, but was instructed to hold off on the election until the RECC and ZC decide on the most appropriate way to fill the office. Zone 1 awaits this decision. What can you, as a sysop, do? If you have strong feelings on how the next ZEC should be selected, tell your REC. If you want more information or just want to watch events unfold, moniter the ZEC and the Z1C echos. You may also want to moniter the Z1_ELECTION echo. Some discussion is going on there now and it's a likely choice for voting if there is to be another sysop-level election. I get a surprising amount of "unapproved" information from what may not be an obvious place - the SUPER-BITCH echo. And Z1_POLITICAL is another place to keep an eye on - It's not too active now, but a likely site for those "unmoderated" discussion if things heat. Finally, you could mention to your friends that there's a bit of background material right here in FIDONEWS. A copy should be available from anyone's NC, and I'll attempt to summarize upcoming news in future issues. -- | Fidonet: Douglas Myers 1:270/720@fidonet.org | Internet: doug@mdtnbbs.com | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. | From Mdtn_BBS @mdtnbbs.com [ In the Heart of Three Mile Island ] ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 7 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= WANTED ================================================================= I am looking to learn more about operating a "point system" on Fidonet. There was a document out there making the rounds called "point.doc". Does anyone have a copy of this that they can forward to me? (In english please, I recently DID get a copy of it in another language. :-) ) If you have a copy of "point.doc" in english, could you send it along to me. If you run a 'point system' on fidonet, I would love to hear from you. Thanks for your help! Dave DAVID_BOUCHER@Prodigy.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 8 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= NOTICES ================================================================= Future History 5 Oct 1998 29th Anniversary of "Monty Python's Flying Circus". 10 Sep 1998 9th Anniversary of Zone 5 operations. 14 Sep 1998 Start of International BBS Week [thru 20 Sep 98]. 22 Sep 1998 First anniversary of the FidoNews domain of www.fidonews.org. 23 Nov 1998 35th Anniversary of Doctor Who. 1 Dec 1998 Fifteenth Anniversary of release of Fido version 1 by Tom Jennings. 16 Feb 1999 13th Anniversary of the introduction of EchoMail by Jeff Rush. 12 May 1999 12th Anniversary of Fido Operations in Zone 4; 10th Anniversary of the creation of FidoNet Zone 4. 24 Jul 1999 XIII Pan American Games [through 8 Aug 99]. 9 Jun 1999 Tenth Anniversary of the adoption of FidoNet Policy 4.07. 10 Sep 1999 10th anniversary of Zone 5 operations. 26 Oct 1999 Thirty years from release Abbey Road album by the Beatles. 31 Dec 1999 Hogmanay, Scotland. The New Year that can't be missed. 1 Jan 2000 The 20th Century, C.E., is still taking place thru 31 Dec. 1 Jun 2000 EXPO 2000 World Exposition in Hannover (Germany) opens. 15 Sep 2000 Sydney (Australia) Summer Olympiad opens. FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 9 21 Sep 1998 1 Jan 2001 This is the actual start of the new millennium, C.E. -- If YOU have something which you would like to see in this Future History, please send a note to the FidoNews Editor. ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 10 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= FIDONET BY INTERNET ================================================================= This is a list of all FidoNet-related sites reported to the FidoNews Editor as of this issue; see the notice at the end. FidoNet: Homepage http://www.fidonet.org FidoNews http://www.fidonews.org [HTML] http://209.77.228.66/fidonews.html [ASCII] WWW sources http://www.scms.rgu.ac.uk/students/cs_yr94/lk/fido.html FTSC page http://www.goldware.dk/ftsc Echomail [pending] WebRing http://ddi.digital.net/~cbaker84/fnetring.html [TFN] General http://owls.com/~jerrys/fidonet.html http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti ============ Zone 1: http://www.z1.fidonet.org Region 10: http://www.psnw.com/~net205/region10.html Region 11: http://oeonline.com/~garyg/region11/ Region 18: http://techshop.pdn.net/fido/ Region 19: http://www.compconn.net ============ Zone 2: http://www.z2.fidonet.org ZEC2: Zone 2 Elist: http://www.fbone.ch/echolist/ Region 20: http://www.fidonet.pp.se (in Swedish) Region 23: http://www.fido.dk (in Danish) Region 24: http://www.swb.de/personal/flop/gatebau.html (German) Fido-IP: http://home.nrh.de/~lbehet/fido (English/German) Region 25: http://www.bsnet.co.uk/net2502/net/ Region 26: http://www.nemesis.ie REC 26: http://www.nrgsys.com/orb Region 27: http://telematique.org/ft/r27.htm Region 29: http://www.rtfm.be/fidonet/ (French) Region 30: http://www.fidonet.ch (Swiss?) FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 11 21 Sep 1998 Region 33: http://www.fidoitalia.net (Italian) Region 34: http://www.pobox.com/cnb/r34.htm (Spanish) REC34: http://pobox.com/~chr Region 36: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7207/ Region 38: http://public.st.carnet.hr/~blagi/bbs/adriam.html Region 41: http://www.fidonet.gr (Greek/English) Region 48: http://www.fidonet.org.pl Region 50: http://www.fido7.com/ (Russian) Net 5010: http://fido.tu-chel.ac.ru/ (Russian) Net 5015: http://www.fido.nnov.ru/ (Russian) Net 5030: http://kenga.ru/fido/ (Russian & English) Net 5073: http://people.weekend.ru/soa/ (Russian) ============ Zone 3: http://www.z3.fidonet.org ============ Zone 4: http://www.altern.org/zone4 Region 90: http://visitweb.com/fidonet Net 903: http://www.playagrande.com/refugio Net 904: http://members.tripod.com/~net904 (Spanish) ============ Zone 5: http://www.eastcape.co.za/fidonet/index.htm ============ Zone 6: http://www.z6.fidonet.org Region 65: http://www.cfido.com/fidonet/cfidochina.html (Chinese) ============ Pages listed above are as submitted to the FidoNews Editor, and generally reflect Zone and Regional Web Page sites. If no Regional site is submitted, the first Network page from that Region is used in its place. Generally, Regional pages should list access points to all Networks within the Region. TCP/IP accessible node access information should be submitted to the FidoNews Editor for inclusion in their Region or Zone. -----------oOo------------- Fidonet Via Internet Hubs FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 12 21 Sep 1998 Node# | Operator | Facilities (*) | Speed | Basic Rate -----------+-------------------+----------------+-------+----------- 1:12/12 | Ken Wilson | FTP | T1 | $24mo. 1:13/25 | Jim Balcom | FTP | 56k | $20mo. 1:124/7008 | Ben Hamilton |FTP,VMoT,F2I,UUE| 64k | $10/$20mo. 1:140/12 | Bob Seaborn | FTP | T1 | $5/$20 1:270/101 | George Peace | FTP | T1 | $30mo. 1:271/140 | Tom Barstow | F2I | ??? | $2mo. 1:275/1 | Joshua Ecklund | UUE,F2I | 28.8 | $10/yr. 1:280/169 | Brian Greenstreet | FTP | 33.6 | $2mo. 1:2401/305 | Peter Rocca | FTP,UUE | T1 | unkn 1:2424/10 | Alec Grynspan | FTP,VMoT | T1 | $1mo. 1:2424/3121| Earl Clark | UUE | 33.6 | n/c 1:2604/104 | Jim Mclaughlin | FTP,VMoT,UUE | 33.6 | $1mo. 1:2624/306 | D. Calafrancesco | VFOS | 33.6 | $15yr. 1:345/0 | Todd Cochrane | FTP | T1 | n/c 1:346/250 | Aran Spence | FTP,UUE | T1 | $10mo. 1:342/1022 | Steve Steffler | UUE,F2I | 33.6 | n/c 1:3651/9 | Jerry Gause | FTP,VMoT | 33.6 | $3/$6 1:396/1 | John Souvestre | FTP,VMoT | T1 | $15mo. 2:2411/413 | Dennis Dittrich | UUE | 64k | n/c 2:33/505 | Mario Mure | VMoT,UUE | 64k | n/c 2:335/610 | Gino Lucrezi | UUE | 33.6 | n/c 2:469/84 | Max Masyutin | VMoT | 256k | n/c 2:2474/275 | Christian Emig | UUE | 64k | unkn 2:2490/5170| Lenny Murphy | F2I | ??? | n/c 5:7104/2 | Henk Wolsink | FTP | 28.8 | n/c -- + VMoT = Virtual Mailer over Telnet (various) + F2I = Fido2Int (W95) + UUE = uuencode<->email packet transfers compiled by C. Ingersoll, 1:2623/71, (609)814-1978, fbn@dandy.net Posted on the 1st of every month in FN_SYSOP, R13SYSOP and Fidonews. - ___ ! Origin: * Fly By Night * (609)814-1978 *(1:2623/71) ****************************************************************** * Region 17 FidoNet BBS available via telnet from the Internet * * 15-Sep-98 * ****************************************************************** All systems verified Sept '98. If you know of a Region 17 FidoNet telnet(able) BBS that is not on this list, please let me know. Lisa Gronke FidoNet: 1:105/9 Internet: lisa@psg.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dimension 7 BBS (1:152/7, 1:152/8) Location: Eugene_OR (USA) telnet: dimstar.net (208.129.202.174) dialup: 1-541-688-5853 Runs: BBBS/LiI v3.42 FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 13 21 Sep 1998 Sysop: Russ Johnson (russj@uswest.net) Notes: FidoNet backbone echos; AnimeNet conferences. The Computer Hotline (1:357/1) Location: Albany_OR (USA) telnet: klock.com (198.68.19.64) dialup: 1-541-928-9535 Runs: Wildcat for Win95/NT v5.00.439 Sysop: Khile Klock (klockk@klock.com) Notes: Selected Fidonet & FamilyNet echos; k12.* newsgroups. Standard access after using Telefier ("CBV" for telnet callers). Mach2 BBS Systems (1:342/61) Location: Edmonton_AB (Canada) telnet: mach2.v-wave.com (24.108.9.29) dialup: 1-403-489-4250 Runs: Maximus/2 v3.01 behind BT 2.60XE (VMODEM) Sysop: Richard Dodsworth (mach2@v-wave.com) Notes: Mach2 carries the complete Fidonet backbone & filebone as well as Os2Net, IBMNet, CAOS2, AnimeNet & JustaNet echos and the comp.os.* newsgroups. An OS/2 support BBS. Pacifier Online Data Service (1:105/103) Location: Vancouver_WA (USA) telnet: pacnt2.pacifier.com (199.2.117.107) dialup: 1-360-699-7112 Runs: Wildcat for Win95/NT v5.00.439 Sysop: Doug Palin (doug@pacifier.com) Co-Sysop: Shawn Booze (tech7@pacifier.com) Notes: 670+ FidoNet backbone echos, 10+ local (Net 1:105) echos, 25+ local (van.*, pdx.*) usenet newsgroups. Terra-Firma-BBS (1:153/765) Location: Vancouver_BC (Canada) telnet: tfbbs.tvinet.com (205.210.70.88) dialup: 1-604-434-3665 Runs: DLG Pro BB/OS v1.0 on Amiga Sysop: Dana Huggard (dana@tfbbs.tvinet.com) Notes: BBS serves the Amiga community. AmigaNet node and RC (40:800/0). See article in FIDO1527.NWS, p 20. WCS Online (1:105/278) Location: Oregon_City_OR (USA) telnet: bbs.wcssoft.com (204.245.231.172) dialup: 1-503-631-4545; 631-4546; 631-8439 Runs: Wildcat for Win95/NT v5.00.443 Sysop: Rob Williams (rob@wcssoft.com, rwilliam@pacifier.com) Notes: 200 Intelec conferences, 100 FidoNet backbone echos; 20 Northwest Net conferences, a few usenet newsgroups. ----------------------------------------------------------------- FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 14 21 Sep 1998 ================================================================= FIDONEWS INFORMATION ================================================================= ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ------- Editor: Henk Wolsink Editors Emeritii: Tom Jennings, Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar, Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Christopher Baker, Zorch Frezberg "FidoNews Editor" FidoNet 5:5/23 BBS +27-41-515-913, 2400/9600/V.34/V.90 more addresses: Henk Wolsink -- 5:7104/2, hwolsink@catpe.alt.za (Postal Service mailing address) FidoNews Editor P.O. Box 12325 Port Elizabeth, 6006 South Africa ------------------------------------------------------ FidoNews is published weekly by and for the members of the FIDONET INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR ELECTRONIC MAIL system. It is a compilation of individual articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the rights of the authors. OPINIONS EXPRESSED in these articles ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHORS and not necessarily those of FidoNews and/or the Editor. Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is Copyright 1998 Henk Wolsink. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or the Editor. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= OBTAINING COPIES: The most recent issue of FidoNews in electronic form may be obtained from the FidoNews Editor via manual download or file-request, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet. PRINTED COPIES may be obtained by sending SASE to the above postal address. File-request FIDONEWS for the current Issue. File-request FNEWS for the current month in one archive. Or file-request specific back Issue filenames in distribution format [FNEWSFnn.ZIP] for a particular Issue. Monthly Volumes are available as FNWSmmmy.ZIP where mmm = three letter month [JAN - DEC] and y = last digit of the current year [8], i.e., FNWSJAN8.ZIP for all the Issues from Jan 98. FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 15 21 Sep 1998 Annual volumes are available as FNEWSn.ZIP where n = the Volume number 1 - 15 for 1984 - 1998, respectively. Annual Volume archives range in size from 48K to 1.4M. INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via: http://www.fidonews.org http://www.fidonet.org/fidonews.htm ftp://ftp.fidonet.org/pub/fidonet/fidonews/ ftp://ftp.aminet.org/pub/aminet/comm/fido/ ftp://ftp.irvbbs.com/fidonews/ ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/Fidonet/Fidonews And in non-English formats via: http://www.hvc.ee/pats/fidonews (Estonian) http://www.fidonet.pp.se/sfnews (Swedish) *=*=* You may obtain an email subscription to FidoNews by sending email to: jbarchuk@worldnet.att.net with a Subject line of: subscribe fnews-edist and no message in the message body. To remove your name from the email distribution use a Subject line of: unsubscribe fnews-edist with no message to the same address above. * You may retrieve current and previous Issues of FidoNews via FTPMail by sending email to: ftpmail@fidonews.org with a Subject line of: help and FTPMail will immediately send a reply containing details and instructions. When you actually make a file request, FTPMail will respond in three stages. You find a link for this process on www.fidonews.org. *=*=* You can read the current FidoNews Issue in HTML format at: http://www.fidonews.org STAR SOURCE for ALL Past Issues via FTP and file-request - Available for FReq from 1:396/1 or by anonymous FTP from: ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/ FIDONEWS 15-38 Page 16 21 Sep 1998 Each yearly archive also contains a listing of the Table-of-Contents for that year's issues. The total set is currently about 13 Megs. =*=*=*= The current week's FidoNews and the FidoNews public-key are now also available almost immediately after publication on the FidoNews Editor homepage on the World Wide Web at: http://209.77.228.66/fidonews.html There are also links there to jim barchuk's HTML FidoNews source and to John Souvestre's FTP site for the archives. There is also an email link for sending in an article as message text. Drop on over. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews Editor, or file-requestable from 5:5/23 [5:7104/2] as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". ALL Zone Coordinators also have copies of ARTSPEC.DOC. Please read it. "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered trademarks of Tom Jennings, P.O. Box 410923, San Francisco, CA 94141, and are used with permission. "Disagreement is actually necessary, or we'd all have to get in fights or something to amuse ourselves and create the requisite chaos." -Tom Jennings -----------------------------------------------------------------