THE DEPENDENT SELF IN NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER IN COMPARISON TO DEPENDENT PERSONALITY DISORDER: A DIALOGICAL ANALYSIS (2/2)
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created by theconstellinguist on 18/11/2024 at 10:53 UTC*
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- *THE DEPENDENT SELF IN NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER IN COMPARISON TO DEPENDENT PERSONALITY DISORDER: A DIALOGICAL ANALYSIS**
Salvatore, G., Carcione, A., & Dimaggio, G. (2012). The dependent self in narcissistic personality disorder in comparison to dependent personality disorder: A dialogical analysis. *International Journal for Dialogical Science*, *6*(1), 31-49.
- *Link**: http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/salvatore2012.pdf[1][2]
1: http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/salvatore2012.pdf
2: http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/salvatore2012.pdf
- **Full disclaimer on the unwanted presence of AI codependency cathartics/ AI inferiorists as a particularly aggressive and disturbed subsection of the narcissist population:*** https://narcissismresearch.miraheze.org/wiki/AIReactiveCodependencyRageDisclaimer[3][4]
3: https://narcissismresearch.miraheze.org/wiki/AIReactiveCodependencyRageDisclaimer
4: https://narcissismresearch.miraheze.org/wiki/AIReactiveCodependencyRageDisclaimer
- *Narcissists have no concept or understanding of real autonomy, self-reliance, or intrinsic motivation. Instead, they view these as performances and frauds because to them they are.**
- *For instance, many people when viewing my subreddit which are notes to myself seem truly and pathologically incapable of seeing that this is for myself which I then share to others who may stand to benefit from my own self-comprehensive work. The publication of a diary or autobiography is a similar phenomenon, a publication that many people appreciate and cherish in particularly competent cases.**
- *Instead of seeing this as a truly autonomous action for the agent published for wider benefit should it happen to be of use, narcissists have projected their own motives, telling on themselves, saying that I am trying to “impress academics”, trying to “seem xyz to xyz” or something else that would be true of them but not for me.**
- *The incongruence is so absurd it is essentially if the person just directly told the individual their own personal motive for doing things, and that might as well be done in such cases. Therefore they don’t understand or believe in real autonomous action and feel deeply threatened by increasing evidence that it actually exists in others in ways it does not really in them.**
- *Narcissists when feeling vulnerable will therefore seem more self-reliant and autonomous hoping that others notice, not actually because they are self-reliant and autonomous. Such a person would be busy being self-reliant and autonomous, not caring if others notice.**
- *Narcissists therefore show a deep threatenedness to and hyperfixation on the other’s behavior that is not seen on people who are truly autonomous and intrinsically motivated.**
- *Thus, they do not actually comprehend autonomy and intrinsic motivation and because of their inability to decenter as characterizes the narcissist, believe it is all fake and a performance and grow increasingly distressed when this hypothesis is falsified**
- *. These behaviors can be considered proof the individual with NPD feels threatened by autonomous, intrinsically motivated** **action and therefore deeply healthy behavior in the person they are dependent on.**
- *That is not okay for the person getting the support and help they need in a healthy, autonomous fashion.**
- *Narcissists find it hard to believe some people are genuinely autonomous and intrinsically motivated without falling into loops of codependence. This is because this implies a real other that does not view them as the center of all things, which is threatening to the immature and very disturbingly real solipsism many narcissists possess inaccurately and in a noxious fashion when examined carefully.**
- *For instance, a delusional stalker may interpret non-self-relevant behavior as self-relevant; they may say someone waiting until another leaves a classroom is proof that they have the crush the other person actually has on them in particularly disturbing incidents desperate to see their delusional attachment present in the other person.**
- *The individual and those around them may all be equally disturbed to hear about this delusion and their rationalization of it. To relieve the deep feelings of codependence they feel in themselves which are ego-dystonic to their narcissistic self-perception, the narcissist may desperately interpret this non-self-relevant information as self-relevant in a desperate hope to be able to suddenly shift the burden of what they feel to be embarrassing codependence onto the victim and be relieved of it.**
- *This is to re-achieve ego-syntonic self-concept as superior and not needy/dependent/obsessed which they find to be a humiliating state, if not infuriating that they have been made to feel inferior when they view themselves as inherently superior (when most do not agree, thus the NPD).**
- *Another example may be excessive hacking or stalking to prove the masturbatory or sexually obsessive behavior in the narcissist is shared and not believing when it is not as they view it as a personal affront to their narcissism that the person has not similarly lost sexual control.**
- *They may even conspire to recreate this impulse in the victim to feel less inferior by creating abnormal and sadistic interpersonal patterns that recreate in the victim the masturbatory dependence they are feeling sexually and in a humiliated fashion behind the scenes. Once this compulsive pain is present in the victim, they immediately transfer their rejected compulsive self onto the victim to receive relief from this ego-dystonic state back into an ego-syntonic state of superiority where their rejected self is successfully transferred onto the victim.**
- *They may try to keep this transfer in place by severe interpersonal abuse as long as possible to receive relief from feeling the presence of their rejected self very keenly when this abuse is not keeping the transfer in place. This is not a functional relationship even if it lasts due to the severity of the abuse, and should be considered another example of failed or painful relationships in the narcissist’s collapsed portfolio.**
- *They may hyperfixate and obsess to extreme and humiliating levels, until this transfer occurs instead of engaging in more healthy, prosocial action. If this recreation does not happen, external intervention may be required because they often will not stop until they do, growing infuriated by feelings of inferiority the situation is creating in them even if external others observing the situation agree these feelings are due given the conditions.**
- *Thus, a talented therapist who understands how to relieve feelings of ego-dystonic/ego-syntonic without signs of inappropriate pathologization is often suggested at this point as an intervention. Even just speaking on this and talking about it with the other person if they are in an ongoing, mutual relationship is comparatively more healthy unless that causes the victim distress due to unshared feelings and no ongoing relationship, at which point a talented therapist as an intervention is suggested.**
- *Even though it is embarrassing for both parties, not speaking on a clear ongoing symptom and simply trying to recreate it in an obsessive fashion to then transfer the feelings of rejectedness in full in the object of dependence is much more unhealthy than simply coming out about the expressions with either the partner if mutual or with a talented, compensated therapist if not in any way mutual due to simply having no feelings or because the abuse has been so severe mutuality is compromised for at least a relatively long time until trust has been built back up.**
1. In normal individuals an activation of the attachment system surfaces in consciousness in the form of appropriate emotions, e.g. weakness or a need for consolation. With the activation of attachment narcissists instead appear cold, tense and self-reliant and are not consciously aware of any emotions connected with their need for attention (Bowlby, 1988; Jellema, 2000). It is difficult for the “Vulnerable Child” (Young, Klosko & Weishaar, 2003) self-aspect to surface in consciousness. As a result, when looking for support, the self paradoxically appears to be self-reliant. The pattern most likely to emerge is self-reliant self/distant and indifferent other (Dimaggio et al., 2002).
- *Narcissists silently expect admiration from others no matter how absurd this demand may be when taken on its face, and show signs of initiating interpersonal dysfunction/malfunction when they don’t receive this.**
- *This is considered an unhealthy dependency with grandiose features. Any sadistic expression is meant to extort admiration where in someone truly admirable it would just express.**
- *This again shows the disturbing feature of narcissists to think that they are entitled to superiority, not just entitled to excessive rights. They genuinely feel they, even though there are many who feel entitled just like they do, are entitled to superiority.**
1. Our goal is to achieve a refined NPD pathology and treatment model, in which silently expecting admiration from others (Kohut, 1971) and showing symptoms or interpersonal malfunctioning when such a support is lacking (Dimaggio, Semerari, Carcione, Nicolò & Procacci, 2007; Robins & Beer, 2001) are generally a form of unhealthy dependency and should be given a special emphasis in treatment, even more than challenging the classic grandiose self features (see Dimaggio, Salvatore, Nicolò, Fiore & Procacci, 2010a).
- *Dialogical self therapy is the tool that was used for those showing disturbing intersections of NPD and DPD.**
1. Dialogical self therapy is the proscribed tool for those who show these concerning intersections of narcissism and dependent personality disorder.
- *Psychological health includes a diversity of voices, self-awareness, effective communication with mutual recognition, negotiation of conflict, and openness to innovation, and the creation of superordinate points of view which provide a sense of coherence, coordinate the different self-aspects, and make it possible to solve conflicts and find new and more effective solutions.**
1. Psychological health and social adaptation can depend on (a) the existence of a sufficient variety of voices, i.e. a minimum degree of self-multiplicity — persons need many voices in order to deal with the host of problems arising in a demanding and ever changing society; (b) the ability to be aware of one’s many self aspects; (c) the ability of the different voices to engage in a dialogue involving mutual recognition, negotiation of conflicts and openness to innovation— the voices need to be reciprocally aware of each other’s perspectives and able to engage in a dialogue respecting their differences; (d) the creation of superordinate points of view, called meta-positions (Hermans, 2001) or metacognitive integration (Semerari, Carcione, Dimaggio, et al., 2003), which provide a sense of coherence, coordinate the different self-aspects and make it possible to solve conflicts and find new and more effective solutions (see Dimaggio, Hermans & Lysaker, 2010b for associations between problems in self-multiplicity and psychopathology).
- *The NPD shifts the DPD abandoned from being loved and attended to with the NPD expression no longer caring about the love and attention that has abandoned them and instead becoming distant, inattentive, and unavailable.**
- *Whether or not the original amount was sustainable can be a reason and cause for the developing NPD, so restoration is not always the answer. For instance, first borns are more prone to NPD because they were used to receiving everything and many of them never are able to adapt to even the slightest fraction in parental attention, trying for the rest of their lives to restore this initial experience even when one would think that they would have resolved this once and for all way earlier in their childhood.**
- *The NPD becomes pathological because what was once an infant or toddler drive reemerges to an aggressive and embarrassing degree well into adulthood when it is no longer appropriate in any way at all, betraying narcissism’s pathology.**
1. One key difference is in the desired and feared dialogical interaction patterns underlying the two disorders. While in DPD the desired pattern can be schematised as vital self v. close, loving and attentive other and the feared pattern as abandoned and devitalised self v. distant, inattentive and unavailable other, in NPD the desired pattern can be schematised as effective and admired self v. admiring other, while the feared one is self seeking admiration v. other denying attention and support, causing the self to fall into a state with poor-self-efficacy, lack of agency (Dimaggio, in press), action paralysis and sense of emptiness.
- *Narcissists’ inner rejected dependent construct experiences many different basic interaction features as abandonment at which point they act like they have been fully abandoned and triangulate to show, like the initial abandonment, that their taking back of love or admiration to control or hurt the rejected dependent self no longer matters and they will simply replace the archetypal abuser to take their power away, when the person in front of them may not be relevant at all to this internal psychological script.**
- *Though this may have been an adaption in a pathological or abusive environment, such as in an environment with a narcissistic parent, the narcissist has failed to adapt and see that the whole world does not operate in these ways and it is precisely their trying to imprint the defunct dynamic from their parents that does not work on the world that causes them to be left behind for being abusive triangulators quite ironically.**
1. Moreover, when NPD sufferers face real-life setbacks, in particular abandonment by a romantic partner, they enter states in which they seek attention from another. However the latter is however perceived as ineffective and they react by assuming a defeatist stance. DPD sufferers, instead, cling desperately to their caregivers in the expectation of receiving help.
- *Paul is a 36-year-old patient meeting NPD in this paper who presents as a disinterested friend but when rejected or not receiving the interest of the female of his interest becomes highly aroused/aggressive and tries to search for her again.**
- *When she leaves again, he does the same thing, always trying to “coincidentally” find her, and in a casual, disinterested way.**
- *This can be particularly disturbing to the person to which he is attached. They clearly describe feeling childlike and wanting attention like a child, but do not put together at such an age they are now the ones responsible for such an inappropriate expression and they need to learn to be the one to attend to their inner child wanting attention and that other adults can no longer do this because they have their own psychological work to do.**
- *This is fine as a child, but no longer fine as an adult. Therapy includes learning how to internalize one’s own self-soothing parent.**
1. Paul is a 36-year-old patient meeting NPD criteria. He has a postgraduate doctor’s degree and intends to pursue a university career. He seeks therapy because of frequent panic attacks and a chronic sense of depressive emptiness. In the early stages of his therapy his narratives – featuring a typical narcissistic narrative style, i.e. detached and intellectualising (Dimaggio et al., 2007; 2010a) – are entirely about his romantic involvement with an ex-student (he taught Italian for a short period in a language school for foreign students), which she has recently broken off. The dynamics of the relationship are of special note: Paul searches for the other and projects a disinterested, friendly self-image of himself; when she accepts his proposal and engages in the relationship on this basis, he looks for more proximity and intimacy and becomes angry and demanding when she does not satisfy his romantic requests; at this point she disengages from the relationship and he starts to search for her in a highly aroused state, in the end offering again his disinterested help like a friend. The cycle restarts.
- *Paul’s NPD is one of the more mature ones, not deeply threatened by his desire for support and willing to reach out for it, putting out a relationship-facilitation self-presentation which is prosocial and mature.**
- *The problematic feature is the vindictiveness when feeling abandoned which needs to have an internalized self that can self-regulate the feelings of abandonment internally with himself.**
- *A sense of outsourcing his intrapersonal processing is palpable; learning intrapersonal skill seems to be what he is looking for as many of those he seeks out are high in it.**
- *Paul has a good relationship to his feelings of vulnerability and can reach out when in them without feeling deeply threatened for doing so.**
- *In addition he can describe when he is in feelings of unhealthy dependency, even though he feels handicapped on what to actually do about them. Overall he has a healthier relationship to vulnerability, able and willing to admit it in the right places, that suggests he can really get in front of his NPD and have little to no suffering and potentially very high quality and satisfying relationships despite the diagnosis compared to other more resistant NPDs.**
1. In this description Paul displays some of the behavior typical of unhealthy dependency (Bornstein, 2005), like strong desire for support, relationship-facilitating self-presentation strategies to strengthen ties with significant others, and an urgent and often angry and vindictive seeking of the other when there is the threat of being abandoned. During the first few sessions Paul provides a perspicacious description of his feelings of unhealthy dependency:
- *Admitting that they adapt themselves to be more what the other person likes is seen sometimes to the point of absurdity.**
- *There is an acknowledgment that this is a feature of a more vulnerable dependent state as opposed to the full-blown hard shell instantiation of a NPD struggling with even the most basic expression of vulnerability.**
- *However, the needs the narcissist expresses for admiration may be expressed eloquently and specifically but may still go unmet due their excessive nature.**
- *Though they may be very aware of their extra admiration needs, that does not mean the person at hand will be able to fulfill them.**
- *However, their ability to express these needs without being deeply handicapped from even stating them is worthy of admiration in itself, even if they likely cannot be fulfilled it in full as a grandiose expression can get very excessive/expensive very fast. This can be disappointing to the mature narcissist who can see this but still wants it anyway.**
- *A deeper understanding at the sustainable economics at play behind repressed and expressed inflation might be useful for them to understand how this need, even if people want to meet it, cannot be met long term.**
1. “Maybe every time I’ve got interested in a girl I’ve tried to adapt myself to that person without really being myself […] I believe it depends entirely on a question of self-esteem because you always try to be acknowledged by the other and so in a way you try to understand what the other wants and to adapt yourself to that desire […]” We maintain that this description contains the essence of pathological dependency in narcissists: the other’s importance is regulated by the pressing need for the other to acknowledge one’s personal worth. In DST terms the desired self-position is effective, admired self v. admiring other.
- *Narcissists whose grandiose image has collapsed fall into a depressive state and reminisce to the time when they were more grandiose.**
- *During this seeking period, the narcissistic shell may be more liable to suddenly return if they feel that the other is shying away.**
- *They may mistake an inability to fulfill the full admiration need with being fully rejected.**
- *They may view this shying away as not being provided the prerequisite attention. This may be the case, but it may also be that the full need is quite excessive and not sustainable as fits the grandiose instantiation.**
1. This dialogical pattern takes on various nuances in line with swings in self-esteem, regulated in their turn by outside events. If their self-esteem is based on negative values, NP disordered patients fall into a depressive state (Dimaggio & Stiles, 2007; Dimaggio et al., 2007), in which they are seized by a pervasive awareness that their grandiose image has collapsed. In this instance the presence of an admiring other has the function of removing the feared representation of an ineffective and failed Self. In this mental state patients are likely to pressingly seek the other and – like Paul – become angry and vindictive if the latter backs off, thus confirming their negative self-perception. In this case they are in the feared self-position, i.e. ineffective and failed self v. other confirming failure by not providing attention.
- *When reaching the point of prestige, they may be particularly likely to seek someone they want to know about it out. For instance, if someone is making a movie about a famous mathematician they may seek out someone they particularly want to be impressed.**
1. Let’s say, if I’ve understood correctly, Claire becomes less important for you at the moment at which you feel closer to a position of strength and prestige. We also have to include here that you had a strong impulse to let Claire know you were reaching this position of prestige. Then, immediately afterwards, you felt your movements in the relationship could be freer, to the extent that you were also expressing more critical thoughts about it […], about Claire’s negative characteristics. So maybe […] one could think that among the fundamental impulses behind your relationship with Claire is that of being acknowledged, having the feeling that the other can see your worth… Pt.: (long pause) Yes, there could be… (pause) and does my father have something to do with this? Because on one occasion I noticed… that when I don’t feel acknowledged I become like a child [..].
- *When they cannot confirm their grand image and cannot receive the full amount of admiration they are either used to or need, they may go into a depressive, dysphoric and defeatist phase. They may deny their therapist can help them in any way, and if their admiration needs are quite massive, this may not be entirely incorrect. However, what can be done should be done and that is why the resistance is problematic.**
1. The state is linked in NPD to a lack of events capable of feeding the grandiose selfimage; for example, after the joy for an earlier success has deflated and self-esteem is again open to discussion (Dimaggio et al., 2002). In this state the lack of preferential attention from the other can confirm an image of self as a failure and precipitate an outand-out depressive state. In such states patients become dysphoric defeatists and, albeit continuing with their therapy, take a contemptuous attitude and deny their therapist can help them in any way.
- *Unhealthy dependency can result in vindictive rage when they see others as rejecting or hindering their goals. This vindictive rage seeks to prevent the empty depressive state of feeling like nothing which is the opposite of their grandiose image. Sometimes people jealous of a successful grandiose expression may do this on purpose out of vulnerable narcissistic envy and for not any good, objective reason. Just that this was a successful narcissist and they were not.**
- *However, narcissists that seek out the targets do not fit this category and are likely in a vulnerable, not grandiose, instantiation as grandiose narcissists are more interested in maintaining a system that has worked for them than seeking out something they haven’t been able to secure.**
1. In both disorders unhealthy dependency can manifest itself with periods of vindictive rage towards the significant other. In narcissists the rage is a transition state (Dimaggio et al., 2002), which gets activated when they see others as rejecting or hindering their goals, and serves to avoid the shift towards the empty depressive state, in which, instead of blaming others, narcissists collapse under their own perception of limited personal worth
1. https://ibb.co/s66QBYv[5][6]
- *Due to the dependence feature, getting the grandiose self-image they would like to receive leads to a joyful state, and getting a depressive self-image may lead to a depressive state.**
5: https://ibb.co/s66QBYv
6: https://ibb.co/s66QBYv
- *Sometimes in NPD with very low interpersonal intelligence the full sense of self may be completely externalized and they may demand expressions on celebrities or spouses to know how they themselves are doing.**
- *They may know how they are doing when they are low in intrapersonal skill by knowing how the externalized other is doing. That’s the only way they know. This would be a particularly dependent feature on an NPD.**
- *This is particularly pathological as other people cannot express how someone feels to the degree they need specifically, and another cannot determine how one feels simply by looking at another. That is very dependent personality disorder logic that is only appropriate on infants from the age of 0-3 that only receive an emotional vocabulary and therefore only know their own emotions from looking at their mother.**
1. In our narcissistic patient the path taken by the anger seems decoupled from relationship events and can go in two directions: towards either the empty depressive state if the subject consciously perceives his failure and this causes a collapse in his grandiose self-image, or the joyful state, if an outside event reinforces his self-esteem and restores the self-image.
- *In other words, narcissistic patients do not depend on others like dependent ones do, but do actually, physically need others’ approval and admiration in ways non-narcissists can mostly live without.**
1. In this work we have focused on the unhealthy dependency trait in NPD. This trait is not contemplated by the nosography, while recent literature on this PD analyses it much less than grandiosity. We have performed a phenomenological analysis of unhealthy dependency in NPD in the light of the DST and through a comparison with unhealthy dependency in DPD. NPD Patients invest in their relationships with others to defend their grandiose self-image when this is threatened or to preserve and expand it when not threatened. In other words, narcissistic patients do not depend on others like dependent ones do, but need other’s approval and admiration, most of all when there is a risk of approval and admiration by the world disappearing.
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