https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1iqnh3j/conflicted_about_zen_buddhism_in_general/
created by seii7 on 16/02/2025 at 08:02 UTC
29 upvotes, 31 top-level comments (showing 25)
Hello!
I’ll get to the crux of my issue right away.
On one hand, I often find zen buddhist teachings to be quite inspiring and beautiful. Basically anything I’ve read and heard from Thich Nhat Hanh, the quirky yet sometimes wholesome, sometimes deep (usually both!) anecdotes about Shunryu Suzuki shared by his students in the book “Zen is Right Here” by David Chadwick, and generally a lot of things I hear from my own dharma teachers and masters about how to be kind, compassionate, find joy in the most mundane things in life and face the impermanence of everything with courage.
However, whenever I delve into the more, shal I say “technical” side of things, I seem to find that buddhists (including zen), are on a quest to come up with the most detailed analyses on how and why existence and the world is a cursed shithole we need to escape ASAP. This doesn’t really inspire me to practise or be compassionate, it just strips the joy out of everything in life. I hardly have motivation to play guitar, spend time with my loved ones, etc., because all I see around me is delusion, ignorance and suffering.
That’s it basically, I don’t know how to really close this post. Any help/insight would be appreciated. Maybe there’s a misunderstanding here on my side.
Cheers.
Comment by Qweniden at 16/02/2025 at 14:56 UTC*
28 upvotes, 1 direct replies
However, whenever I delve into the more, shal I say “technical” side of things, I seem to find that buddhists (including zen), are on a quest to come up with the most detailed analyses on how and why existence and the world is a cursed shithole we need to escape ASAP
You have to understand the context of those teachings. The Early Buddhist Teachings (EBTs) were primarily delivered to a renunciant (homeless monk) audience who saw normal life as something to avoid. They focused on the unpleasant aspects of life as a skillful means of helping those monks let go of material and bodily clinging.
Our practice context is different. The vast majority of Western Zen Buddhist are householders practicing in the midst midst of bills, work, families, school, friends, etc. A world-denying teaching is not a very skill means for us. Generally, a more world-affirming Mahayana outlook makes better sense. In Zen in particular, the goal isn't the ultimate seclusion from and denial of the world, but rather engagement with it with the aspiration to help where we can. In fact, the last "stage" in the traditional steps of Zen practice is titled "Entering the Village". In this step we explicitly head into the dynamics of regular life with a heart of compassion and eagerness to help other beings.
Even more broadly, in the EBTs the goal is to leave the world when we pass away, but in Mahayana (which Zen is part of), the goal is the be reborn and stay in the world to be of assistance. It is a very different perspective. As /u/Nicholas_2727 points out, Mahayana also has the concept of Buddha Nature. The idea is a positive one. It says that in our core, we are awakened beings and our Buddha Nature is inherently tied to and even synonymous with compassion. Certainly, in my own life, the more my mind works in accord with my Buddha Nature, the kinder and more compassionate I have become.
I hardly have motivation to play guitar, spend time with my loved ones, etc.,
In my own life, as my practice has developed, I find the world to be a richer, more wonderful and more beautiful place. My wholesome desires and aspirations are actually stronger, not weaker. In the past, I was more compelled to hide from the world and now I feel more eagerness to explore it and celebrate it.
all I see around me is delusion, ignorance...
It might help to understand what the concept of delusion/ignorance actually is in Buddhism.
The word being translated from Buddhist texts here is avidyā/avijjā. This word points to the idea that all human problems are caused by being ignorant of the true nature of reality. The fundamental misunderstanding that is encapsulated in this term is the mistaken perception that our self-identity is real. By contrast, when we are free of this perceptual misunderstanding, we see that the only thing that is actually real is our formless awareness of the timeless present moment. All our memories of the past and mental simulations of the future that make up who we think we are, are not actually real. They are just high-level best guesses and abstract ideas about reality.
These apparitions of the past and future are just (hopefully helpful) survival tools to help us survive as organisms. All of our memories, beliefs and view of the future are not concretely real.
While this capacity of the mind to create a provisional "self-identity" is essentially important for survival, the whole thing tends to go too far when it begins to rule our lives instead of just being a helpful tool. The goal of practice is not to completely get rid of this illusion of self, but rather to see through it so that it does not enslave us. Practice is a movement from enslavement to freedom.
Does all this make sense? Is it helpful?
Comment by Know-Quarter5150 at 16/02/2025 at 13:49 UTC
17 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I hardly have motivation to play guitar, spend time with my loved ones, etc., because all I see around me is delusion, ignorance and suffering.
This could be the onset of depression and not necessarily related to any (mis)understanding of zen. A year and a half ago I was going through a hard time mentally and being repulsed by activities that once brought me joy was a clear sign that I needed help. Be kind to yourself and consider talking with a therapist if these feelings persist.
Comment by Concise_Pirate at 16/02/2025 at 12:24 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Escaping the world isn't the goal of Zen. That's a common misunderstanding.
Comment by HakuninMatata at 16/02/2025 at 08:58 UTC
13 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It is probably worth considering that the experienced practitioners of this ostensibly depressing religion, of all school, tend to be very happy, chill, compassionate people. So there's some kind of conflict between how things seem that needs resolution.
Comment by GruverMax at 16/02/2025 at 15:05 UTC
12 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I don't see it that way at all. There's some esoteric principles to wrestle with - "everything is nothing? Seems like it should be Something!" But at the end of meditation it's possible that something in your rested mind pops out and says "I'm not handling this right. " The intent is to see things as they are, not get stuck staring at the veil of delusion, which is the natural state.
Comment by feeling_luckier at 16/02/2025 at 08:34 UTC*
10 upvotes, 0 direct replies
There is no escapism in zen. Let it all in.
Comment by mierecat at 16/02/2025 at 12:45 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The point is not for you to wallow in your own despair. You cannot address a problem until you understand the problem exists. You can’t hope to solve a problem until you know its causes. If the highest goal for this general sect of Buddhism is to help save others, no one could accomplish that without having some knowledge about what they’re even saying people from.
The world was full of delusion and suffering before you studied Buddhism. If you think “what’s the point? *I* can’t do anything to fix it” you have failed to understand what you’ve learned. (Don’t worry too much about this; you’re still learning.) This is a very selfish reaction, because it prioritizes your own satisfaction over the problems others face. If you are in a position to help, do so. It doesn’t matter if you’ve eradicated every disease on the planet or simply carried someone’s groceries. But if you’re stuck thinking that nothing you do matters because you’ll never fix the world, you’ll ignore any opportunity to help at all. That itself is delusion. That is failing to see the life for what it is because you’re too attached to what you think it should be, and that attachment becomes resignation when the world fails to live up to your expectations.
Comment by Nicholas_2727 at 16/02/2025 at 13:09 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Try studying more Buddha Nature teachings. Mahayana takes a different approach then early Buddhist teachings. In early Buddhism the goal is to leave this "shit hole" as quickly as possible. Mahayana takes the non-dual approach and says that samsara is Nirvana. There is no "shit-hole" to leave, and no nirvana to go to as the Heart Sutra says. This only makes sense when studied from the early teachings to Mahayana.
Comment by Ariyas108 at 16/02/2025 at 11:09 UTC
8 upvotes, 2 direct replies
However, whenever I delve into the more, shal I say “technical” side of things, I seem to find that buddhists (including zen), are on a quest to come up with the most detailed analyses
Zen would call that “conceptual proliferation” and it’s not something you’re supposed to practice doing, but really the opposite.
Comment by heardWorse at 18/02/2025 at 22:28 UTC
7 upvotes, 2 direct replies
It’s true that Buddhism has a lot to say about the nature of suffering - and that can leave one with the impression that it is a pessimistic faith. But my practice of Zen has brought more happiness, wellbeing and confidence into my life than I have ever experienced before. Truly, I was a very unhappy person for most of my life, and now at age 44 I can say that is no longer true.
And rather than an escape from the world, I would describe it as an escape *into* the world. Zane has taught me how to experience the painful aspects of life fully, without running away from them. And when experiencing them fully, accepting them and even embracing them, they cease to hurt in the same way. I often even see the beauty in painful experiences. It’s not an easy practice, or for the faint of heart, but it brings a deeper kind of happiness than anything else I know of.
Comment by JundoCohen at 16/02/2025 at 08:53 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
The little corner of practice, the Soto Zen way, where I sit lets the world be as it is, but without our constant need to change, push, run, judge, plan, make, do. The world is just as it is which, when the mind stops meddling, reveals reality as a Beautiful, Peaceful, Joyful and Whole realm (Big Letters) even though we see its beauty and ugliness, war and peace, smiles and tears, broken pieces when judged with small human eyes. Nothing to escape from, no place to escape to, no need of escape.
Then, with such realization in our bones, we dive into this life with its problems and things to fix, but all shines in a new way. It is something like a guitar that is always in Tune (Big T) even if we need to tune it (little t) and play it skillfully.
Comment by Individualist13th at 16/02/2025 at 08:32 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The focus on the doom and gloom is not to be doomy or gloomy, but to look at the world as it is.
Sometimes you are cold or hungry. These things can be unsettling, but unless you are in danger of freezing or starving they aren't that big of a deal.
Some get provocative with it and I find it tiring too.
It's about not clinging to the good to feel good, or evading the bad to not feel bad.
Good and bad will happen, but both can be embraced or avoided in excess.
It's about being okay with things no matter how they are. Being okay inside so you can respond appropriately outside.
Comment by Willyworm-5801 at 16/02/2025 at 16:53 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
My experience has been w Rinzai zen, so take what I say w a grain of salt. Rinzai is different from Soto zen. Rinzai de-emphasizes the conceptual. It consists mostly of two things: meditation and Koan study. By not intellectualizing much, it avoids getting into all the ideology questions. They are meaningless and unnecessary. Rinzai is intuitive and highly practical. If you want more info on this simplified path, tune into my brother on YouTube. Simply type in: Jeff Shore. Buddhist lectures
Comment by bigSky001 at 16/02/2025 at 22:40 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Where are you finding the "technical side"? What kind of reading or interviewing are you doing to conclude that Zen teachers and students of the past have the idea of "escape"? or interested in establishing the category "shithole"?
Comment by Young_Ian at 17/02/2025 at 02:48 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Hey man, this might not be the answer you were looking for, but therapy is helping me with unmotivation and lack of joy generally. I also have a daily meditation practice, built upon necessity basically, addiction issues etc.
I think the less you think about it, the better. If you really want to meditate, you will. If you really want to get a taste of meditation, then keep practicing. Consistency is key. 10 minutes per sitting is fine. If you do it most days, momentum will build, and you will eventually want to sit and meditate for yourself.
I started using the Waking Up app, using guided meditations to encourage me, and to make sure that i am meditating correctly. I picked a long course with 30 minute sessions, and i think i've sat with each session 8 or more times. It helps keep me grounded and helps point me to the subtler aspects of meditation.
Comment by cityfeller at 16/02/2025 at 09:18 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Is that view your interpretation of Buddhist teachings or is it what you’ve read in Buddhist teachings and texts?
While Buddhism aims to end suffering it doesn’t take such an extreme black and white view of life. You might say more about the negative view of life you describe.
Comment by zenwitchcraft at 16/02/2025 at 14:22 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Nothing matters, cherish everything.
Comment by TolstoyRed at 16/02/2025 at 14:34 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
In some schools this considered a normal part of the path. It signifies that you are developing insight, and if you continue it will mature in a fuller understanding.
Keep the faith, keep practicing, this too is impermanent.
Comment by JohnnyBlocks_ at 17/02/2025 at 13:15 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
"I seem to find that buddhists (including zen), are on a quest to come up with the most detailed analyses on how and why existence and the world is a cursed shithole we need to escape ASAP."
In my training I find sort of the opposite. There is no escape. Engagement is important with your community (as in locality). We know why it is a cursed shithole... it is because people are living in their own delusions.
I feel it focuses on taking your practice off of the cushion and not really trying to define why things are... they just are.
Comment by jurafa at 18/02/2025 at 19:39 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
If youre looking for motivation you wont find it in Zen. Zen is good for nothing. When you are looking or expecting something that’s when conditions that lead to suffering arise.
Comment by IndigoStef at 19/02/2025 at 05:21 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Buddhism has a lot to do with what you make of it, in my experience. Try reading some Zen Koan’s - they can often inspire deeper thoughts on the concept of Zen. If it doesn’t feel right, it may just not be your path. To me it took over a decade of studying Buddhism before I called myself a Buddhist and accepted the precepts.
Comment by MrGurdjieff at 16/02/2025 at 08:27 UTC*
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
So you’re saying that real Zen teachers are inspiring, but Zen nerds are just annoying? No surprises there.
Comment by Most-Entertainer-182 at 16/02/2025 at 09:32 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
When I practice shikantaza the bliss is unreal, and everything is known as and seen through and as that bliss, and it is all transcended
Comment by TheRealDrRat at 16/02/2025 at 22:53 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Isn’t that the point because that’s the truth. Like why be ignorant? I think over time you will get to enjoy things again though lol.
Comment by DyJoGu at 18/02/2025 at 22:20 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I can't remember the exact teacher or student right now, but I remember a dialogue between a zen teacher and student that went something like this:
Student: "I want to reach enlightenment to escape this world of suffering."
Teacher: "But what about the rest of us? You want to leave us all behind to suffer?"
Essentially, the teacher was trying to get the student to realize that enlightenment won't be found by focusing on escapism and nihilism. We need to meditate and gain insight, but we also need to be forces for good in the world. Being a Bodhisattva, one might say.