created by JundoCohen on 24/01/2025 at 08:09 UTC*
16 upvotes, 11 top-level comments (showing 11)
Someone wrote me about a post I cannot see because I have blocked a couple of rather angry folks.
Apparently, people misunderstand my post (ORIGINAL POST LINK[1]) as somehow advocating for "do nothing Zen" when I am instead calling for sincere, dedicated, whole-hearted sitting with no goal for nothing is lacking, therefore nothing to attain. It is anything but "just sit around doing nothing!" :-) That would be a real twisting of the very clear words of what I wrote, I feel.
Apparently, the author, u/chintokkong, tried to make his point that I am wrong about "nothing to attain" because the Diamond Sutra says, "I actually have attained not a single thing/object" and "There is not anything that can be attained" and that non-attaining is Supreme Enlightenment. That sounds as if it is just making my point. :-o
We attain the non-attainable by, in Shikantaza, dropping all hunger to attain. Thus bodymind drops away.
Shikantaza is not just sitting around. That is why Okumura Roshi also says that "Zazen is Good for Nothing!" Thus, it is a Treasure Good in the Beginning, Middle and End!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-Z1WoFXkk[2][3]
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-Z1WoFXkk
3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-Z1WoFXkk
Folks should realize that there are many ways to "attain the non-attainable," and to "get to" what is here there and everywhere. If one runs very far, travelling over far mountains, one "gets to" what is here there and everywhere, and if one truly truly stops and rests right here (as Dogen says in the Fukanzazengi, not trying to "make a Buddha" and simply resting from the "chasing of phrases" and thoughts in the mind), one also "gets to" what is here there and everywhere.
I am sorry, after many attempts, I had to break off talking to some angry folks. I am happy to discuss with anyone who would like to have a civil discussion, even if people disagree on their own practices. There are many good ways to practice, and we should be tolerant of each other.
Okumura Roshi - Zazen is Good for Nothing
Comment by Pongpianskul at 24/01/2025 at 10:57 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
We live in a culture that pushes personal achievement through hard work and self control. It is hard for some of us to give up the idea that we have to do something weird with our brains in order to get enlightenment for ourselves. it is hard to accept that all 5 skandhas are empty. It is also hard to accept the idea that everything we do is supported by all the rest of existence. We want all the credit for our "achievements". Zen is very subtle and hard to understand for people with an "everyone for themselves" secular mindset.
The idea that by surrendering our identities as individuals during zazen is key sounds very foreign to our go-getter culture.
Comment by Zebedee_Deltax at 24/01/2025 at 12:56 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I agree.
Ordinary mind!
Comment by 2bitmoment at 24/01/2025 at 15:35 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I've blocked a few people from the other subreddit. People seem to not like Dogen there? I'm guessing the whole debate is about that. Whether instead of like Dogen said that "it's the only dharma portal" it is counter productive at least in many cases...
for example from the book Instant Zen:
When I was journeying in the past, I called on teachers in one or two places; they just taught day and night concentration, sitting until your buttocks grow callouses, and all the while your mouth is drooling. From the start they sit in the utter darkness in the belly of the primordial Buddha and ignorantly say they are sitting in meditation conserving this attainment. At such times, there is still desire there! Have you not read the saying, ‘When independent and unimpassioned, you yourself are Buddha’! An ancient remarked, ‘If you poison the milk, even clarified butter is deadly.’
...
Buddhism is an easily understood, energy-saving teaching; people strain themselves. Seeing them helpless, the ancients told people to try meditating quietly for a moment. These are good words, but later people did not understand the meaning of the ancients; they went off and sat like lumps with knitted brows and closed eyes, suppressing body and mind, waiting for enlightenment. How stupid! How foolish!
Comment by simongaslebo at 24/01/2025 at 11:45 UTC
3 upvotes, 2 direct replies
This back and forth between you and chintokkong is very amusing to be honest. Anyway, one point I kind of agree with him on is that your approach sounds a little bit like a form of "self-hypnosis". Sitting with the conviction that there is no other place to be and nothing to achieve feels like you are trying to convince yourself of it. Whereas, sitting solely for the sake of sitting would already encompass the fact that there is no other place to be and nothing to achieve.
Comment by Pleasant-Guava9898 at 24/01/2025 at 13:41 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I personally only focus on my actions. And that is all I do. Everything else is outside my hands. And I don't do anything with a "goal" speaking as a Buddhist with any karma related outcome in mind. I try not to be attached to anything but my actions. It work for me
Comment by Soft_Pilot3412 at 24/01/2025 at 19:09 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Honestly I wasn't confused, but thanks for the clarification
Comment by Swarochish at 25/01/2025 at 00:06 UTC
2 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Can we reason that there is nothing to attain, through this reasoning?
If there was an ultimate truth to be attained. This truth that explains everything, even how we refer to it and how we call it and when we ‘discover’ it is all ‘decided’ by that truth.
So our struggle and fights are all ‘empty’ of Self, and ‘full’ of the truth.
I believe the “Do Nothing Zen” is about recognizing this!
I might be very wrong, I apologize if I have accidentally stepped over the line
Comment by Buddah_K9_Mu at 24/01/2025 at 19:41 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
seems like both of you are talking about the same thing.
to rest in awareness without thoughts arising we must develop certain qualities of mind through shamatha-vipashyana (which chintokkong wrote about). eventually, we realize that awareness is always present, hence "nothing to attain".
Master Dogen was a cunning and funny guy, i believe that his advice to "just sit" aims to relax the mind, but also serves as a reminder to keep our mind from wandering, i.e. walking off, lol.
Hats off to you Master Jundo and a big thank you to u/chintokkong for his wonderful translations.
Comment by Steal_Yer_Face at 24/01/2025 at 19:39 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
IMO, it's not appropriate talk about someone you have blocked.
Comment by Crafty-Waltz6769 at 24/01/2025 at 08:23 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I’d like to have understood this already. I don’t know why I chose to even read one word, but I can’t say I don’t feel anger now. Scientifically, I think they’d call it fight or flight, I’d like to just sit with this.
Comment by TK-Squared-LLC at 24/01/2025 at 15:47 UTC
0 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I have understood for a while now that a good deed is only a good deed if you can find a way to do it such that nobody will ever be able to discover that it was you who did it. Perhaps enlightenment is the same way.