https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1hz716i/a_couple_of_questions_regarding_koans/
created by Erutaerc-Art on 11/01/2025 at 21:58 UTC
14 upvotes, 12 top-level comments (showing 12)
Hello there! Just had a couple Koan Qs:
1. Why are some of them so gory? Couldn't the meaning be expressed without all the bodily harm? (i.e: Gutei's Finger[1] / Nansen Kills the Cat[2]) I really love koans, but I sometimes am a bit taken aback by ones like these.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juzhi_Yizhi#Gutei%27s_Finger
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanquan_Puyuan
2. I'm thinking of starting a blog of some sort with daily zen drawings and self-made koans, just for fun, but I'm not sure if that gives the wrong impression. I'm not trying to seem like a master or wise or anything, but I don't know if it would come off as pretentious. Any thoughts on this?
Comment by Concise_Pirate at 12/01/2025 at 00:11 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Creating koans is not a game for amateurs. They are made by Zen Masters and typically have been evaluated over long periods of time. Turning this into a game would be a distraction from your spiritual journey.
Comment by SoundOfEars at 12/01/2025 at 17:04 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Read more and try to understand before.
Comment by Affectionate-Act-691 at 11/01/2025 at 23:26 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
1. for helping to eliminate ego
2. Doing drawing is OK, doing self-made Koan is not that easy, koan is something that you find more than something that you made.
Comment by koshercowboy at 12/01/2025 at 18:59 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Should they all be light and fluffy?
Comment by HakuninMatata at 13/01/2025 at 20:34 UTC
3 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Koans aren't really things that are made. The word "gong-an" means "case", like a legal precedent. Koans are usually anecdotes of interactions between Zen masters and each other, or with students, and occasionally snippets of sermons. They were likely repeated a bit orally at first, simplified, and then collected and written down, often with additional commentary by other Zen masters.
There's no way to know if Nansen actually killed a cat. It doesn't really matter, compared to the fact that Zen teachers for generations have considered it a useful story to tell, particularly with Joshu's response to the retelling of the event. What were the quarrelling monks unable to do when Nansen challenged them? What was it about Joshu's response that got Nansen's approval?
Zen drawings sound fun. Invented stories can be fun. But koans are a particular kind of teaching device, accounts of the words and actions of Zen masters, and it's probably safest not to describe any stories you come up with as koans.
Comment by JundoCohen at 12/01/2025 at 00:59 UTC
8 upvotes, 2 direct replies
As to the cat, it is unlikely that any cat was actually killed ... One of the most easily misunderstood of Koans, I feel:
Here is how I take it: The "Sword of Wisdom" in Mahayana Buddhism actually makes the separate things of the world one when it "*uncuts*." It is the opposite of a worldly sword. The monks, in fighting over the cat, are the ones who had already mentally divided it.
There was unlikely to have been any literal killing celebrated by Buddhist priests who take a vow to avoid violence, not to mention all the Karmic ramifications. Instead, Nansen actually brought wholeness and the cat back to life by ending the monk's arguing and divisive thoughts, and returning to Wholeness and the Absolute. No cat was harmed, in either the relative or the absolute sense.
As to the finger: In the story about Gutei cutting the boy's finger, the original meaning of the Chinese is likely closer to "gave a sharp twist" (刀斷, as here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E5%88%80%E4%B8%A1%E6%96%AD[1][2] and https://hanzii.net/search/word/%E5%BF%AB%E5%88%80%E6%96%AD%E4%B9%B1%E9%BA%BB?hl=en[3]), not literally cut off or do actual violence. The point is, of course, not just to imitate, but to know the true meaning.
1: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E5%88%80%E4%B8%A1%E6%96%AD
2: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E5%88%80%E4%B8%A1%E6%96%AD
3: https://hanzii.net/search/word/%E5%BF%AB%E5%88%80%E6%96%AD%E4%B9%B1%E9%BA%BB?hl=en
I would be cautious about making your own Koans unless having a deep, well digested and wide understanding of the Zen and Mahayana Buddhist Teachings, and the special wisdom them each Koan embodies. If you misunderstood the above Koans so easily, perhaps it would be a bit pre-mature for you to do so.
Sorry, I do not mean to kill and "cut off" your nice idea. ;-)
Comment by Willyworm-5801 at 14/01/2025 at 17:10 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I studied and practiced Rinzai Zen with my brother. He now teaches and he had to solve many koans. I think you are being steered in the wrong direction. We never encountered gory koans. We were given harmless ones such as:
What is the sound of one hand clapping? Who were you before you were born?
I suggest you do a Google search to see if there are any Rinzai Zen communities near where you live. Meanwhile, you can listen to my brother's zen teachings by going to YouTube and typing in:
Jeff Shore. Buddhist lectures
Comment by edgepixel at 16/01/2025 at 08:55 UTC*
2 upvotes, 1 direct replies
1. If they were not shocking, would they have the same impact? Maybe they are meant to really drive home the point that Zen (life, really) is serious business, and our actions can sometimes have dire consequences. On the other hand, such gory cases are in the minority. And how are you more taken aback by the odd chopped cat or finger than about the poor fellow doomed to be reincarnated as a fox for 500 lifetimes? :)
2. You can play with words and images however you like. If you are attracted to something (koans, in your case) it's a good idea to investigate further. But don't call your creations "koans", otherwise you cheapen their meaning, contributing to a public shallow understanding of what they are and what purpose they serve. They're not just curious cool little stories, that anyone can just invent. Behind each of them there is a whole lifetime of Zen discipleship, encapsulated in a particular master-disciple interaction, that works as a teaching device, to open a window into an aspect of the dharma.
To practice Zen, an authentic master (verifiable lineage, on good terms with his own master), and a healthy community is essential. Such things may be hard to find. But otherwise, you're just playing with a cool hobby, and might get the wrong ideas, which is pretty easy to fall into.
Comment by ClioMusa at 11/01/2025 at 22:17 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
1. The shock factor, pushing you outside of your comfort zone, and trying to subvert your expectations, especially around what question and enlightenment look like, are all extremely useful tools.
2. Drawing pictures from the stories, lives and experiences of masters, and sutras is great! And as long as you’re upfront, humble, and don’t act pretentious or pose as something you’re not - I don’t see why there’d be an issue. Especially if you have dharma brothers and sisters who are looking at it, and are part of a sangha and training with a teacher already.
Comment by the100footpole at 11/01/2025 at 22:35 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
1. No. But perhaps these are not for you. Or maybe they are? Nansen Kills the Cat was especially hard for me because of that, specifically.
2. No problem as long as you say what you just did here: that you're not a master or anything, you are just doing it for fun :D
Comment by Zealousideal-Cry-790 at 20/01/2025 at 01:06 UTC*
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
They are shocking to elicit the very thing koan practice is designed to cut through - the content of your own mind. Koans cannot be answered with thinking or any rational answer. There is no correct word based answer to a koan. A koan is designed to tie up your thinking and make it useless, to draw out the very source of delusion and slice through it.
Comment by GentleDragona at 13/01/2025 at 00:02 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Make no mistake, the feline was, indeed, killed and torn and given to the two whiney grown-ass brats that, each coveting Da Cuteness so much that, triggered by the poison of their seemingly endless verbal ownership battle, their Master commenced with this most unfortunate lesson; not just creating a valuable lesson in emotional maturity (and the lack thereof) - an important lesson still being pondered and discussed more than a thousand years hence - but also putting a permanent end to the Ownership Battle of the Brats, and thus granting everyone else present that soothing (though now made solemn by the dread slaughter of the innocent) and sacred state of blessed silence.
I understand your initial sentiment towards the story, but another valuable aspect of it is as a reminder. It is true (and most fortunate) that Zen contains a very unique and, sometimes even transcendent, sense of humor. And though I give much merit to Zen's humor, as well as humor in general, this shocking lesson is a perpetual reminder of how Serious the actual goal of Zen is; as well as the Work (or practice, if it does ya) one must engage in to reach this goal.
Hope this helps bring a little light to your perplexity.