https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/131l1t2/the_four_noble_truths_and_the_relationship_of/
created by chintokkong on 28/04/2023 at 07:49 UTC*
15 upvotes, 5 top-level comments (showing 5)
The topic of dukkha (suffering) has come up several times in this sub. Thought it might be useful to share the buddhist view on dukkha (suffering) through the sutta on the four noble truths.
Even though it is considered sravakayana and so not that closely related to zen buddhism, appreciating some of the subtleties of the buddhist four noble truths might help frame our discussion of suffering better in this sub.
This is a link to the relevant sutta on the four noble truths - *Dhammacakkappavattanasutta*:
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false
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1. **First noble truth** states the 7 types of dukkha (suffering) and summarizes suffering as the 5 skandhas (aggregates) subjected to upadana (clinging/fuelling).
2. **Second noble truth** identifies the proximate cause of dukkha (suffering) as due to tanha (craving), which leads to renewed bhava (existence/becoming).
3. **Third noble truth** basically states that dukkha (suffering) ceases when tanha (craving) ceases.
4. **Fourth noble truth** states that the way to the cessation of dukkha (suffering) is through the noble eightfold path.
5. .
Some of you might notice that in the second noble truth, it is stated that tanha (craving) leads to both dukkha (suffering) and renewed bhava (existence/becoming).
Renewed bhava basically leads to rebirth, which is what we call samsara (the cycle of birth and death). This is why when we talk about suffering in the context of buddhism, the issue of samsara cannot be avoided.
This linkage of suffering with the cycle of birth and death is also stated in the first noble truth where birth/aging/decay/death are considered suffering.
Those who are familiar with the 12 nidanas[1] will also appreciate this relationship of tanha (craving) to bhava (existence/becoming) to jati (birth) and jaramarana (aging/decay/death).
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da#Lists_of_nidanas_2
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Some of you might also notice that, although the cessation of dukkha (suffering) happens with the cessation of tanha (craving), the way leading to such a cessation of suffering is not through a direct attempt to cease craving.
Instead it is through right knowledge/wisdom thoroughly purified in all three phases (as taught in the last half of the sutta) that there can be liberation from suffering, whereby this life is the last birth with no more renewed existence/becoming.
Such perfection of the right knowledge/wisdom is typically done through the practice of the noble eightfold path (Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration). Hence the fourth noble truth.
Some questions to think about.
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A typical confusion people might have regarding dukkha (suffering), especially by those who don't understand the relationship between suffering and rebirth, is the conflation of upekkha (equanimity) with cessation of dukkha (suffering).
They equate the momentary peace of upekkha (equanimity), usually cultivated through certain meditations, to that of liberation and enlightenment.
Upekkha (equanimity) is basically an effect of samatha (concentration/collectedness). It is not quite related to vipassana (buddhist knowledge/insight). But it is a good position from which to proceed into meditative contemplation or examination of the buddhist teachings to realise the necessary knowledge/insight for cessation of craving to happen.
Those who are familiar with the 12 nidanas will know that the very first link of the nidanas is that of avijja (ignorance). It is with the necessary buddhist knowledge/insight that the links of 12 nidanas can be so-called broken for craving and rebirth to cease.
Although these are sravakayana teachings, those interested in mahayana (which zen buddhism is a school of) might find it useful to be familiar with them too, especially when talking about suffering in the buddhist context.
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Comment by Qweniden at 28/04/2023 at 13:24 UTC*
3 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Thank you for the post.
Third noble truth basically states that dukkha (suffering) ceases when tanha (craving) ceases.
To elaborate on some of your points, here is what the sutta says explicitly:
Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it
I think the key point here is that the "cessation of craving" is not "no craving". Rather, it is not holding onto it.
In the 12 nidanas, Upādāna (or grasping) comes after Taṇhā (or craving) and is the bridge to Bhava (existance).
When we look at Upādāna it has a dual meaning of "for one to pick up" and also "fuel". When one "picks up and holds" the sources of craving, then this becomes the fuel for becoming or existence.
The "weak link" of the chain in all of this is ignorance (as you mention). When we knock out ignorance, the whole house of cards falls down. At that point we are no longer "holding" onto the sources of Taṇhā. We relinquish and no longer rely on these sources. Its not as if there is no longer clinging, its an indirect letting go of our hold on it.
And this maps to the phenomenology of life and practice. Unless it is through aging, illness or injury, no one ever is free of cravings driven by homeostatic requirements for survival such as temperature parameters, physical body integrity and food nutrients. And we are never free from the need of social participation. We die or go crazy without these.
This is a subtle but extremely important point. So many Westerners think practice is directly getting rid (cessation) of craving and feel their practice is lacking if they do not. The truth is that we only indirectly "get rid of it" by seeing through ignorance (as you point out).
Our bodies do not stop craving, we just need to let go of that craving by seeing through ignorance and not reifying a five-aggregate-driven self-identity around this craving.
A typical confusion people might have regarding dukkha (suffering), especially by those who don't understand the relationship between suffering and rebirth, is the conflation of upekkha (equanimity) with cessation of dukkha (suffering).
Is that a widespread belief? It is pretty explicit that equanimity is a fruit of the jhanas and it is very explicit that none of the jhanas or arūpa states are awakening.
Although these are sravakayana teachings, those interested in mahayana (which zen buddhism is a school of) might find it useful to be familiar with them too, especially when talking about suffering in the buddhist context.
In my humble opinion, it is not really possible to understand Mahayana without understanding sravakayana teachings first. I see Mahayana as an elaboration of sravakayana teachings, not a replacement of them.
Comment by the100footpole at 01/10/2024 at 10:13 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
So, I recently had an insight regarding the four noble truths and how they relate to Zen's direct route. Maybe you'll find it interesting.
As you know, the Pali Suttas state that the four truths each have an associated task. Dukkha must be comprehended, its cause abandoned, its cessation realized, the path completed.
I always thought it was a bit silly that the three last tasks were basically the same. But what about the first one?
And then it came to me. Gotama defines dukkha as the five clinging-aggregates, which constitute what we call self. In other words, the self itself IS dukkha. It's not an unpleasant feeling or emotion that we need to overcome. Dukkha is the very construction of our own selves!
So the first task is to see through this self. Seeing through IS abandoning craving IS realizing the end of dukkha IS completing the path. There's only one thing we need to do, we just need to do it thoroughly.
This view has the nice consequence that it ties Zen's "seeing the nature" directly with the end of dukkha, which I hadn't seen before so clearly. All that Zen is saying is "get to the bottom of yourself, see through it completely, and that'll do".
In that sense, shikantaza (if done to the end) will do just as well. Don't you think?
Comment by ClioMusa at 01/05/2023 at 23:15 UTC*
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The more I read the agamas/nikayas, the more I come to understand Sravaka teachings. And the more I understand those fundamentals, the more I'm able to understand the Heart and Diamond Sutras, Zen teachings and what my own teachers are saying. I was told by monastic friend of mine that the Mahayana teachings are built on the Hinayana (the word he used), and the more I study and practice - the more I find that to be true.
If anyone is wanting to become more familiar with those teachings, **"*What the Buddha Taught*"** by Bhante Rahula and **"*The Heart of The Buddha's Teachings*"** by Thich Nhat Hanh are both very good, and for the Sravaka Suttas you can start with **"*In the Buddha's Words*"** by Bikkhu Bodhi. They are all recommended in the /r/buddhism book list as well.
Comment by [deleted] at 28/04/2023 at 11:50 UTC
-9 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[removed]
Comment by [deleted] at 28/04/2023 at 11:59 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Please keep in mind that many branches of Mahayana post 2 kinds of equanimity: ordinary equanimity, which is often viewed more or less as you described it and great equanimity which is a state in which sentient beings can permanently abide. The goal of of much Zen practice and much Vajrayana practice is to realize the single taste of all phenomenon: that they arise in dependance on mind. These teachings are just as grounded in the words of the Buddha, but not the SN. Many of us believe that the buddha turned the wheel of the Dharma 3 times, and spoke to beings according to their needs and capacities. Even in terms of Theravāda analysis of The Eight Fold Path I am more convinced by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's introduction to his book on the topic which says that eliminating suffering and escaping samsara are as dependent on right speech, right action, and right livelihood as they are on right view. It's fundamentally sectarian attachment to promote this as THE truth on the matter.