https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ti35ls/ukrainian_thoughts_on_azov/
created by elektromozg on 19/03/2022 at 19:46 UTC*
2462 upvotes, 107 top-level comments (showing 25)
But just in case you have someone whom you need to get educated on the topic, here is a very good post with multiple sources to similar posts of people with more credentials and expertise than me on this topic.
much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world
Ukrainian here. Been reading a lot of things about Azov on Reddit and not once seen a point of view from someone from Ukraine (maybe I haven't noticed if there are some post in comments).
Please read this if you want a take from someone closer to what's actually happening.
A few important things for foreigners to take note:
1. As of 2014 Azov is an official part of Ukrainian armed forces, fully integrated into the structure and command chain of the armed forces which includes being subject to military tribunal and military police. 1. If they commit any crimes they will be persecuted and even dismantled as was the case with “Tornado” battalion. In fact, most of the really fasc. guys from Azov were moved to tornado at one point, and we're persecuted and fired during the trial. You can read about Tornado here (ukr source, use g.translate) Tornado battalion[2]
2. There are more than 1500 combat role members, saying that Azov is fascist is wrong just because people are constantly coming and going, different people, different ethnicities and beliefs, there is even an old Jewish man there who fights since 2014.
3. There was actually cleaning done by government and their own members, so most of the too ultra-right guys have left.
4. Their roots are in people who were really ultra-right wing or outright nazi that's true, they still have a nationalistic culture this is also true. Most of the fascist buzzword news I think were made specifically for western media and was funded by Russia as means to lower western support for Ukraine. Seen some senators throwing this around when Trump was I'm power, I think at the time it was to attack Trumps standing kinda like “look he's sponsoring nazis by giving Ukraine arms etc.”
5. Andriy Biletsky their founder, who have run for parliament as independent (with no success), claims to have severed ties with them (which is of course bullshit). But think of it this way, if some MAGA politician had ties with some specific marines platoon, would that make all the marines there Trump supporters? That guys also spewed some hardcore shit about needing to unite Ukrainian nationalists and Russian ones way before Crimea annexation, so I'm fairly certain he won't gain much traction.
Update:
Saw an interesting post with ***Vyacheslav Lykhachov's*** material on Azov. Azovs_are_heroes_who_defend_mariupol[3]
There is a link to the original article in the comments. That guy is an actual researcher of hate crimes and everything related (his credentials are at the bottom of the article) so this might be an intriguing read.
3: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraina/comments/u6vytd/azovs_are_heroes_who_defend_mariupol_and_the/
Comment by AutoModerator at 24/09/2022 at 22:41 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Hello /u/elektromozg,
Want to support Ukraine? Here's a list of charities by subject.
DO / DON'T[1] - Art Friday[2] - Podcasts[3] - Kyiv sunrise[4]
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t5okbs/welcome_to_rukraine_faq_do_dont_support_read/
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday/
3: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ttoidc/collection_of_podcasts_about_ukraine_updated/
4: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293/
5: /message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine
Comment by therealviiru at 19/03/2022 at 21:30 UTC
148 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Thank you for rhis post. I have friends who have served in Azov and they joke around about "full HD nazi" stuff.
Yet even in Maidan there was Svoboda and other ultras, as they saw opportunistic loopholes and after that things got ugly by banning political parties and staging multiple votes etc.
For this moment, in this time of tragedy, I wholeheartedly believe Ukrainians have banished their oppressors from the past.
The path is long and icy, but you are our comrades in democracy and freedom.
Slava ukraini.
Comment by aka_KyZa at 19/03/2022 at 22:06 UTC
273 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Mods, pin this post for a day at least, PLEASE!!!
Comment by marymarygocontrary at 19/03/2022 at 20:15 UTC
226 upvotes, 4 direct replies
This is interesting, OP. Good write-up. Russian propaganda likes to paint them as people who don't just hate Russian state but will gladly eat Russian babies with fork and knife, given the chance. Just a note on this: I remember how the annexation of Crimea and creation of two "republics" caused a split within Russian right wing circles. Some were ecstatic, others felt that this was a tragedy and some even volunteered to fight against Putin's Russia and joined Azov (and some other batallions probably idk). Apparently some of them felt that this was a war of values and civilizations, that Russia was occupied by Putin just like it was occupied by Bolsheviks earlier and that Ukraine and the rest of Europe had to be protected from this threat etc etc. iirc they fit in pretty well and didn't have any problems because of their ethnicity.
Comment by Jaaawsh at 19/03/2022 at 21:26 UTC
103 upvotes, 5 direct replies
I really don’t know what to think about Azov. I hear many different things, and many reputable media outlets had numerous stories of many… problematic and alarming things about Azov up until very recently.
HOWEVER, it is quite clear the whole “neo-nazi controlled government” justification used by Russia to invade is bullshit. If they were truly concerned about ultranationalist/neo-nazi infiltration of Ukraine then they would not be covertly supporting (or at the very least, looking the other way) the numerous neo-nazi and Russian ultranationalist fighters in the separatist militias over the past 8 years.
Comment by [deleted] at 19/03/2022 at 19:49 UTC
358 upvotes, 5 direct replies
As long as Azov kills Russians, then I have no issue with them. Russia are the ones behaving like literal Nazis.
Comment by [deleted] at 19/03/2022 at 21:47 UTC
21 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Just wanted to say thanks for this informative post. There’s a lot of nuance that is lost on most of us from outside your country, and even continent. It’s sad that this is the circumstance—atrocious war—surrounding how many of us are now learning, and thanks for taking the time.
Comment by [deleted] at 19/03/2022 at 19:57 UTC*
72 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Good read. Informative.
I’m not Ukrainian, I’m Russian-American, but I have family from Ukraine.
The fact that there are nationalists in Ukraine is absolutely normal. But it is especially understandable when you understand that Ukraine had a huge Russian element within. It was just one of the ways for Ukrainians to assert their national identity.
The Russian element that existed in Ukraine is the reason I believe the West was so apprehensive to integrate Ukraine into the EU and NATO. They were afraid they couldn’t trust Ukraine.
But now they see the truth and I believe the West feels remorse for how it mistrusted Ukraine.
Comment by Value-Tiny at 19/03/2022 at 19:52 UTC
134 upvotes, 3 direct replies
The Nazis are long gone and we dealt with them. Soviets are still here. Stalinism and communism is responsible for 20+M of civilians deaths. There's a reason in Poland you go to jail for supporting Hitler or Stalin, we treat them same. Baltic States and Eastern European countries know what Russians are.
Comment by Feralkyn at 19/03/2022 at 19:54 UTC
59 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Good read, OP. If anyone wants info to back this point of view, here's an interesting article I ran across from a Jewish man who worked with Azov soldiers:
Comment by Starkheiser at 19/03/2022 at 21:38 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Good read, thank you!
Slava ukraini
Comment by WalkerBuldog at 19/03/2022 at 20:54 UTC
36 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Azov operates the same as the other battalions and guys with open neo-facist ideology were thrown away from Ukrainian volunteer brigades since 2016.
Comment by 1x000000 at 19/03/2022 at 21:28 UTC*
53 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I know a lot of nationalists and am one myself, our entire ideology is rooted in the idea of Ukrainian independence, we don’t want anything to do with nazis and all this “nationalists are nazis” talks is pure bs. A lot of my family members died from Holodomor, I never had a chance to meet them. The ones who survived were persecuted all the way into 1950s and further, even to a point when my mother couldn’t go to kindergarten because her dad wrote Ukrainian poems where he showed his disdain for Stalin. Most of my nationalist friends have similar stories. There are a few bad apples so to speak, but they’re not actual nazis, just edgy idiots. Those are the ones that Russia is using to portray the entire country as nazis.
Edit: thought I’d mention it here. I spoke to my grandma the other day, she lost 5 sisters to Holodomor and her older brother was killed at the start of WW2. She was telling me a story about how she met a nazi officer when she was still a child and he was talking to her about how they won’t harm them and gave her a candy. She says that even the nazis weren’t as bad as the soviets in their treatment of ethnic Ukrainians, both then and now.
Comment by Whythebanhammer at 19/03/2022 at 20:09 UTC*
29 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Simply put, some part of elements/ideology of Azov may be appalling, but Russian is coming to erase their culture. Choose one.
Comment by Distinct-Most-7739 at 19/03/2022 at 21:48 UTC
22 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Every Ukrainian are in the war. It is meaningless to discuss political and ethnic status when you enemy is going to kill everyone indiscriminately
Comment by dndnametaken at 20/03/2022 at 01:20 UTC
11 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Bolivian here! It’s very convenient for disinformation agents to paint anything nationalist as “Nazi”. Same thing happened in Bolivia in 2018 and I’m more than convinced that Russia had its fingers in it
Comment by aka_KyZa at 19/03/2022 at 22:02 UTC
20 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Нарешті, бляха, хоч один великий і детальний пост, який все пояснює. Як же задовбало вже чути від іноземців про нацистів з Азова. російська пропаганда дійсно виливається і за межі їх фашистостану.
Comment by stanselmdoc at 19/03/2022 at 22:21 UTC
28 upvotes, 1 direct replies
US citizen here. My thoughts on Azov are:
Every country has nationalists and Nazis. The presence of Nazis in a country does not give another country the right to invade them to "de-nazify" them.
Comment by Abject_League3131 at 19/03/2022 at 21:11 UTC
33 upvotes, 1 direct replies
This is what I've been trying to tell people here but I keep being accused of being a nazi myself...
People are so quick to label others without learning the truth and instead choose to spread Russian propaganda.
Comment by angryamerican1964 at 19/03/2022 at 23:09 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
all have to say is the Wagner Group in Russia
Comment by [deleted] at 19/03/2022 at 20:50 UTC
40 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Everyone who thinks they are nazis just repeats after Russian propaganda, which is the worst source of information in the whole wide world. Azov fights the invaders and is doing great. That's all there's to know.
Comment by Icy_Addendum_1330 at 19/03/2022 at 20:19 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
THEY are killing the occupants, so I support them.
Comment by blaqstarr at 20/03/2022 at 02:16 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
i've been saying this, the azov is just a far right militia but that doesn't mean they're nazi. they just ultra-nationalist where every nations have one of them group. if every ultra-nationalist is nazi then the whole world have one in their country no matter their religion or race. i love how nowadays any type of right wing thinking is wrong literally nazi while any form of left wing view just plain good ol times. people tend to forget that holodomor exist
Comment by gnudarve at 19/03/2022 at 20:32 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
During times of crisis, unity and focus on law of the right wing is more useful, and during time of peace and growth lefts focus on social and cultural parts.
This is the way.
Comment by Trepidus02 at 19/03/2022 at 21:24 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
There is a concept where 10% of far left and far right will not change their ideologies, and 80% of people will swing a bit on a meter. So your right not all Mexicans are drug cartels, not all Muslims are terrorist. You made strong points to the LGBQ/BLM movements The media like to “make things catastrophic” as it means more drama. Drama sells and this is why there is literally a genre of movies called “ drama.”
Even the Russian representative to the UN stated whomever wins the information war will win the war. This is why you see the cherry picking of information that is the most extreme. As I write this I have sky news in the back ground and a reporter said “there are things happening that make you want to grab the public by the neck and make them watch you.”
So in short my opinion is more of what you brought up about catch phrases “ Trump supporter on the right” “socialist/communist if it’s on the left “ all because one person said it in some stupid fashion. I vote: republican / democrat/ libertarian based on the agendas being supported. So it cracks me when I’m called a……. Which leads me to your other point is having left and right in the office at certain times. This is best case scenario as it keeps those 80% more or less balanced as the pendulum swings. Leaving you with legislation in the middle ground.
I feel the biggest issue is, Azov has a bad history, so does Germany. At what point is it that people recognize the changes made and things are no longer that way? But while flare words keep arising it’s going to keep happening. Thankfully the biggest flare word flying around right now is “glory to Ukraine” but it has united most the world, the only people it pisses off are the Russians stuck in their old ways. If you look “most” those getting arrested are young and their elderly are the largest section of the Russian population based on a negative growth rate. It shows not all Russians are bad, but right now it seems all Russians are getting shit on.
I would prefer we figure out a way to get it spread across Russia that if you turn yourself over to Ukraine you will be treated fairly and don’t need to die for $300-600 as a conscript/ enlisted. Then those that don’t want to take part can go awol into safety rather than resorting to self harm.