1 upvotes, 46 direct replies (showing 25)
View submission: API Update: Enterprise Level Tier for Large Scale Applications
As we committed to in our post on April 18[1] and shared in an update on May 31, we now have premium API access for third parties who require additional capabilities and have higher usage limits. Until this change, for-profit third-party apps used our API for free, at significant cost to us. Of course, we have the option of blocking them entirely, but we know third-party apps are valuable for the Reddit ecosystem and ask that they cover their costs. Our simple math suggests they can do this for less than $1/user/month.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/
Pricing is based on API calls and reflects the cost to maintain the API and other related costs (engineering, legal, etc). This costs Reddit on the order of double-digit millions to maintain annually for large-scale apps. Our pricing is $0.24 per 1000 API calls, which equates to <$1.00 per user monthly for a reasonably operated app. However, not all apps operate this way today. For example, Apollo requires ~345 requests per user per day, while with a similar number of users and more comment and vote activity per user, the Reddit is Fun app averages ~100 calls per user per day. Apollo as an app is less efficient than its peers and at times has been excessive—probably because it has been free to be so.
┌────────────────────────────┬─────────┬─────────┐ │ │ App 1 │ App 2 │ ╞══���═════════════════════════╪═════════╪═════════╡ │ Daily active users (DAU) │ 1,000 │ 1,000 │ ├────────────────────────────┼─────────┼─────────┤ │ Server calls / DAU │ 100 │ 345 │ ├────────────────────────────┼─────────┼─────────┤ │ Total server calls per day │ 100,000 │ 345,000 │ ├────────────────────────────┼─────────┼─────────┤ │ Cost per 1k server calls │ $0.24 │ $0.24 │ ├────────────────────────────┼─────────┼─────────┤ │ Total annual cost │ $8,760 │ $30,222 │ ├────────────────────────────┼─────────┼─────────┤ │ Monthly cost per user │ $0.73 │ $2.52 │ └────────────────────────────┴─────────┴─────────┘
​
For apps that intend to use Reddit data and make money in the process, we are requiring them to pay for access. Providing the tools to access this data and all related services comes at a cost, and it’s fair and reasonable to request payment based on the data they use.
​
Edit: formatting
Comment by iamthatis at 02/06/2023 at 19:33 UTC*
111 upvotes, 9 direct replies
As I asked before, could you please clarify what inefficiencies Apollo is experiencing versus other apps, and not that it is just being used more?
If I inspect the network traffic of the official app, I see a similar amount of API use as Apollo. If you're sharing how much API we use, would you be able to also share how much you use?
I browsed three subreddits, opened about 12 posts collectively, and am at 154 API requests in three minutes in the official app. It's not hard to see that in a few more minutes I would hit 300, 400, 500.
Proof: https://i.imgur.com/NvKzsDI.png
If I'm wrong in this I'm all ears, but please make the numbers make sense and how my 354 is inherently excessive.
Comment by km3r at 02/06/2023 at 17:29 UTC
13 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Considering most POST API calls were free content provided to reddit by the users, I assume you will begin paying users for the content they provide? $0.24c per 1000 comments/posts. Upvotes and downvotes should also be paid as they provide essential ranking information for reddit.
Comment by f_k_a_g_n at 02/06/2023 at 19:03 UTC
10 upvotes, 3 direct replies
I have to say it's pretty shocking to see engineers continue to publicly insult the Apollo devs.
You guys are just making things worse.
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 22:00 UTC
9 upvotes, 1 direct replies
This has to be one of the worst comments I’ve ever read on this hellhole of a website. And that’s saying a lot.
First of all, singling out Apollo while *every 3rd party dev is saying they won’t be able to afford this* is just petty and malicious.
Then, saying Apollo is doing an inefficient use of the API while your own app is even worse is just… Stupid.
Finally, Christian, Apollo’s dev, has asked several times what he can do to fix his API usage. As far as I can tell, he’s still waiting for an answer.
If you want to kill 3rd party apps, just do it. Don’t play with us or the devs. You’re somehow making Elon look good, and Elon is a fucking clown.
Comment by eable2 at 02/06/2023 at 19:35 UTC*
7 upvotes, 1 direct replies
the Reddit is Fun app averages ~100 calls per user per day.
I'm a RIF user and I'm honestly confused - I'm wondering if you could explain something for me.
I look at subreddits and click on posts a few times per day, so it does not at all surprise me that I'd make 100 API requests per day. This, you say is efficient. But according to u/talklittle, this pricing will still kill the app's viability[1]. I mean, $9,000 annually for an app with only 1000 users, scaled up to RIF's size??
How can you seriously claim to not want to kill all fully-featured third-party apps? The distinction between Apollo and RIF seems somewhat besides the point when the pricing is this high. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Comment by Remny at 02/06/2023 at 18:42 UTC
7 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Apollo as an app is less efficient than its peers and at times has been excessive—probably because it has been free to be so.
And because you didn't bother contacting the author even though he was willing to work on solutions.
For apps that intend to use Reddit data and make money in the process
Yeah, and I bet they are raking in millions of dollars. /s
More like they make a few bucks while offering a better experience than anything you can come up with.
Comment by PPNewbie at 02/06/2023 at 19:40 UTC*
6 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Even if Apollo optimized by a factor of 4, their much large DAU count means it'd still cost them in the millions. How is that any more reasonable, whether the number is 4 million or 20?
And for that matter, RIF is *also* saying that they'll be unable to keep going with these numbers, so what's the purpose in using them as a comparison point to Apollo? Under the current format, **both** are being forced to shutter. Efficiencies be damned.
Comment by vinniep at 02/06/2023 at 20:45 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
If any of the intentions here are to be taken as honest, I have to assume that the team responsible is also incompetent. Why incompetent? Well, because the API pricing structures only came out 30 days before their intended implementation date. Maybe not you, specifically, but the only way anyone could have thought that 30 days was enough time for 3rd party apps to adopt entirely new pricing structures and roll them out to their users is if they are actually very bad at their jobs and have no real world experience with this type of thing.
The alternative, of course, is that no one at Reddit actually intended for 3rd party app developers to be able to adapt to these new rules and this is an incredibly thinly veiled attack with the expectation that those apps simply go away, forcing users to move to the Reddit native app.
Hey, maybe that's going to work out for you. I do still browse on a browser when I'm at my desk (at least until you also kill RES and old.reddit, that is), but the catastrophe that is the Reddit mobile app will not be getting reinstalled. I'd say you should go buy Apollo, but after what happened to Alien Blue, I'm not sure that's a great strategy either.
Just for fun, here's a less insanely stupid suggestions on how you could have done this:
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 20:52 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 20:53 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by harshilshah1910 at 03/06/2023 at 01:26 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Just a heads up that whatever mental image you have of how your responses are being perceived and the impression you're giving, the reality is entirely fucking different from that
Comment by ralphreyna at 02/06/2023 at 16:53 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Did y’all expect the response you’re getting from the community or no?
Comment by dgneo at 02/06/2023 at 18:58 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Tagging u/iamthatis
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 19:10 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by YourResidentFeral at 02/06/2023 at 19:53 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
You're using RiF as an example to compare to Apollo but your current model kills that and all the "more efficient apps" as well.
As someone that is a developer, Apollo clearly has some work to do regarding how they use the API. The API shouldn't be free. The pricing should be reasonable.
Part of the core issue here is that users are paying premium access to a 3rd party app for a hamstrung API.
Can you answer this core question: If you want discoverability and access to NSFW content to follow certain guidelines, why not include those requirements in the API contract instead of wholesale blocking that information from 3rd party apps entirely? Why should users pay a premium for a fraction of the access?
Comment by PhotoshopLegend at 02/06/2023 at 17:23 UTC*
2 upvotes, 1 direct replies
it’s fair and reasonable to request payment based on the data they use.
Totally missing the point.
The prices you're imposing effectively overnight are going to outright kill a majority of third-party apps. If you were interested at all in keeping third-party apps viable, you would not be imposing this type of price hike in such a fashion. This, in combination with the removal of access to NSFW content is an obvious attempt to block out competition to your own subpar application. Ironically, you almost certainly could have achieved this goal while *increasing* community goodwill if you just made a better app, but instead you've decided to punish the people who did a better job than you.
You know just as well as anyone else that Reddit built the platform, but users built the community. We're not just stealing shit from you, this is a trade. I think people would be more than willing to have a discussion about some type of pricing to keep reddit going, but you are making absolutely no effort to be reasonable with the community that literally built your company.
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 21:41 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 17:09 UTC*
3 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Comment removed in support of Apollo.
Comment by [deleted] at 02/06/2023 at 19:45 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by Annies_Boobs at 02/06/2023 at 20:19 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Are you really not embarrassed how ramshackle this whole announcement has been? Continues to be? You’re being aggressive towards developers that have grown your platform by the millions because you’re taking the communities reaction personally.
Grow the fuck up and do your job.
Comment by adamkemp at 02/06/2023 at 20:52 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Using commenting and voting as metrics to determine how active users are is absurd. I use Reddit frequently throughout the day, but I almost never comment or vote on anything. I'm mostly a lurker. Apollo happens to be a great app for how I use Reddit. I doubt very much that it is less efficient than Reddit is Fun. It's just better, and I use it a lot because it's better.
I've said before, and I'll say again: if you kill Apollo by introducing these ridiculous costs then I'm just going to leave Reddit. I know I won't be the only one.
Comment by Blitzpwnage at 02/06/2023 at 23:00 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
“Fair and Reasonable” is the new “Pride and Accomplishment”
Comment by peteroh9 at 03/06/2023 at 00:11 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
the Reddit is Fun app
So you force the app to change its name and then you continue using the old name? That's pretty shitty.
Comment by livejamie at 03/06/2023 at 00:18 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Of course, we have the option of blocking them entirely, but we know third-party apps are valuable for the Reddit ecosystem and ask that they cover their costs. Our simple math suggests they can do this for less than $1/user/month.
I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further.
Comment by andrewsad1 at 03/06/2023 at 00:46 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
but we know third-party apps are valuable for the Reddit ecosystem
I don't believe you do. It's clear that this move is specifically meant to kill third party apps, without outright *saying* they're banned. If you actually knew how valuable third party apps are to the ecosystem, you would listen to the vast majority of your userbase who are begging you not to go through with this.
