https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/
created by spez on 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC*
0 upvotes, 116 top-level comments (showing 25)
Dear redditors,
For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Steve aka u/spez. I am one of the founders of Reddit, and I’ve been CEO since 2015. On Wednesday, I celebrated my 18th cake-day, which is about 17 years and 9 months longer than I thought this project would last. To be with you here today on Reddit—even in a heated moment like this—is an honor.
I want to talk with you today about what’s happening within the community and frustration stemming from changes we are making to access our API. I spoke to a number of moderators on Wednesday and yesterday afternoon and our product and community teams have had further conversations with mods as well.
First, let me share the background on this topic as well as some clarifying details. On 4/18, we shared[1] that we would update access to the API, including premium access for third parties who require additional capabilities and higher usage limits. Reddit needs to be a self-sustaining business, and to do that, we can no longer subsidize commercial entities that require large-scale data use.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/
There’s been a lot of confusion over what these changes mean, and I want to highlight what these changes mean for moderators and developers.
In our conversations with moderators and developers, we heard two areas of feedback we plan to address.
2: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/data-api-terms
3: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/developer-terms
5: https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=14868593862164
6: https://developers.reddit.com/
Mods, I appreciate all the time you’ve spent with us this week, and all the time prior as well. Your feedback is invaluable. We respect when you and your communities take action to highlight the things you need, including, at times, going private. We are all responsible for ensuring Reddit provides an open accessible place for people to find community and belonging.
I will be sticking around to answer questions along with other admins. We know answers are tough to find, so we're switching the default sort to Q&A mode. You can view responses from the following admins here:
- Steve
P.S. old.reddit.com isn’t going anywhere, and explicit content is *still* allowed on Reddit as long as it abides by our content policy.
edit: formatting
Comment by reddit at 09/06/2023 at 18:57 UTC*
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
We know answers are tough to find, we've switched the default sort to Q&A mode; you can view responses from the following accounts as well:
edit: grammar
edit 2: added links to responses
Comment by [deleted] at 09/06/2023 at 17:45 UTC*
2209 upvotes, 8 direct replies
[removed]
Comment by g-money-cheats at 09/06/2023 at 17:48 UTC*
2803 upvotes, 11 direct replies
Hi spez,
I am an indie third party Reddit app developer. I have sent requests for commercialization and help at least 10 times over the last 3+ years, both to api@reddit.com and via your Zendesk forms, and have never gotten a response.
In recent announcements in r/reddit (post here[1]) and r/redditdev (post here[2]), Reddit provided a form[3] to fill out a request for Enterprise API access. I have filled this out 3 times and still have not gotten a response.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/
I know at least two other major third party app developers who have filled out these forms and emailed api@reddit.com or devapps@reddit.com and gotten totally ignored every time.
Edit: included devapps@reddit.com
Comment by MCRBE at 09/06/2023 at 17:46 UTC*
855 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Honestly dude, what the hell? You’re going to kill this site with these antics.
I’m curious if you and the other admins spend any actual time on Reddit? Do you look at what’s upvoted and see the comments?
Read the room and reflect. The community is in an uproar. People are looking for Reddit alternatives[1] en masse. If you aren’t careful Reddit will be buried in the same grave as Digg and MySpace.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/
Apologize to Christian Selig, stop trying to kill 3rd party apps, and hope you haven’t done too much irreversible damage.
Comment by MostlyBlindGamer at 09/06/2023 at 17:48 UTC
574 upvotes, 2 direct replies
u/spez I'd like to address a few issues:
Reddit has now learned of and recognized its failings in accessibility. These issues have been reported for years. Blind and visually impaired users and mods have relied on third-party apps to use Reddit.
Why did you not contact disabled communities to gauge the impact of the API changes?
You say you've offered exemptions for "non-comercial" "accessibility apps." Despite r/blind's best efforts, you have not stated which apps qualify or how they were selected. r/blind compiled a list of apps that meet users' access needs[1] .
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/1447ibp/what_apps_meet_your_access_needs/
Why didn't you ask for this and which developers did you contact?
You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do, while providing value to your company, by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue.
Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?
Comment by jmpixels at 09/06/2023 at 20:46 UTC*
390 upvotes, 4 direct replies
This is Jay Peters from The Verge[1]. A Reddit spokesperson tells me **the AMA is over.** I haven't seen anything from Reddit that would indicate that, so I figured you all should know.
1: https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754780/reddit-api-updates-changes-news-announcements
edit: shortened the message
Comment by CringyRedditGuy at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
350 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Hey Spez,
So obviously, we’re looking at some pretty big changes ahead with the API. As you know, this move has been met with a lot of criticism from both users and developers, largely due to concerns about accessibility and fairness.
Given that Reddit has always been a place that championed open-source collaboration and community engagement, this seems like a stark deviation from the founding principles once embraced by you, Alexis Ohanian, and Aaron Swartz.
Furthermore, the recent situation involving what appear to be demonstrably false claims of a developer threatening you— this has added to the mistrust and uncertainty within the community.
My question is two-fold:
1.) Can you provide a detailed explanation as to why Reddit has decided to limit API access via a higher price point? How does this decision fit into the broader philosophy and future of Reddit?
2.) How do you plan to rebuild trust and ensure transparency within the community, especially considering the recent allegations?
Comment by Miloco at 09/06/2023 at 17:48 UTC*
1505 upvotes, 6 direct replies
I have sent many emails (devapps@reddit.com) and have used the online contact form which reddit themselves have asked developers to use. Each and every time I hear nothing.
What am I supposed to do? The deadline is approaching fast, my app will be rate limited by Reddit and it will stop working. **Please, reply to developers who contact you.**
I feel completely powerless to do anything right now and I want to try and save the app I've been working on for the last 10 years.
I know I'm not the only developer who is being ignored, it's extremely unfair and a horrible way to be treated.
Comment by Jordan117 at 09/06/2023 at 17:45 UTC
2931 upvotes, 14 direct replies
Social media follows a 90-9-1 distribution: 90% are lurkers, 9% are commenters, 1% are content creators. Reddit's big enough to have an even smaller sub-0.1% that undergird this structure: the developers, mods, and power users that create cool useful tools and perform millions of dollars worth of free labor to support the site. The changes y'all have pushed the last few weeks are taking a sledgehammer to that foundation's core workflows.
In a spreadsheet I'm sure that users of PushShift, third-party apps, custom bots, etc. are rounding errors and that alienating them to save money is a net gain. But users of such tools are also far more engaged with running the site than your average lurker. And turning these people *against* the site will do orders of magnitude more damage than whatever you eke out by recapturing some third-party app traffic. This backlash could realistically kill the site.
I know you're trying to address concerns by promising to improve the official app. But frankly y'all have promised a lot of things over the years that never materialized. (Remember "Reddit is ProCSS"[1]? Six years later there's still a ghosted-out CSS widget in New Reddit that says "Coming Soon.") The scathing exposé from the creator of Apollo[2] certainly didn't inspire confidence in how you're approaching this. Here's an idea to rebuild trust: how about delay the new API fees for one year -or- until the official app actually has mod tool/accessibility parity with third-party offerings (whichever is later)?
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6auyq9/reddit_is_procss/
Over 3000 subreddits with over a billion supportive users are actively protesting this move, with many planning to go dark indefinitely. Developers who host dozens of critical bots for hundreds of major subreddits are threatening to pull the plug. Users with 10+ year histories are choosing to wipe their accounts rather than be associated with your company any more. And they're not asking for much: just to make the API affordable (not even free, unlike their labor) and to stop pulling disruptive changes like this with no community input or reasonable time to prepare.
So my question: Will you step back from the brink and listen to this outcry from your core users? Or will you pull a Digg and drive the site off a cliff in myopic pursuit of short-term profit?
Comment by takaiishi at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
975 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Why did you explicitly state that the supposed “threat” from a popular developer stated here[1], was actually a “complete misinterpretation on [your] end” (source 1[2], source 2[3], source 3[4]) during ongoing talks about the API in which there was suddenly no response for over a week now (in source 3[5])?
1: https://reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/_/jnbjtsc/?context=1
2: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014
3: https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a
4: https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/
5: https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/
Comment by [deleted] at 09/06/2023 at 17:46 UTC
1172 upvotes, 9 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by elsjpq at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
392 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Why do you want to restrict NSFW from third party apps?
Comment by computerfreund03 at 09/06/2023 at 17:45 UTC
272 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Why are Freelancers able to make such high quality apps, while reddit, being a business with millions in revenue makes an app which is embarrassing in all factors?
Comment by shiruken at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC*
591 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Why were none of these API changes brought before the Mod Council? Relatedly, should there be a "Developer Council" to address topics like this?
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/comment/jnk6rf8/?context=1
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/12qwagm/an_update_regarding_reddits_api/
4: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/
Comment by teanailpolish at 09/06/2023 at 17:45 UTC
128 upvotes, 2 direct replies
some questions my team has before we make a final decision on whether to go forward
- will you be issuing an apology for misrepresenting what Apollo said about $10m (or can you confirm there was another conversation about it not included in the audio)
- is there a chance the third party apps roll back the decision to close on June 30
- there was a comment that mod actions do not count towards API limits, can you give us an idea of the % of api calls that are mod related and how this would reduce costs
- will reddit be issuing a timeline for the promised improvements not included in the list earlier this week (particularly accessibility)
Comment by Leonichol at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
888 upvotes, 4 direct replies
I can understand the need to charge for the API - that is reasonable (even if the price to 3PA's is not). But 30 days notice seems overly punishing. Honestly, this felt like Reddit giving the middle finger to 3PA developers, its moderators, and power user community - people who are its biggest cheerleaders. I saw Reddit hurt its most loyal Redditors en masse, and I don't know why Reddit would choose to do that.
Thanks for your time all the same. I know this is a difficult period.
Comment by PublicQ at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
335 upvotes, 3 direct replies
What will Reddit be doing in response to the upcoming subreddit blackout? More specifically, will you be forcibly re-opening subreddits and/or replacing moderators?
Comment by [deleted] at 09/06/2023 at 17:45 UTC
920 upvotes, 4 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by secretlives at 09/06/2023 at 17:47 UTC
1930 upvotes, 7 direct replies
Hey /u/spez, I just want to say that despite all the hate being directed at you right now that you really have made the wrong decision at literally every juncture throughout this process. Have you given any consideration into acknowledging you were wrong and reconsidering your goals and/or timeline?
Comment by Zekro at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
802 upvotes, 7 direct replies
Why the sudden hostile treatment of developers of third-party clients? They don’t do harm and improve the Reddit experience for a lot of users.
Comment by TwasAnChild at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
540 upvotes, 2 direct replies
For years reddit didn't have an official app, so hardworking members of the community created apps like Apollo and RIF.
And you in all your greed have decided that all that dedication meant nothing, and now are killing them cause for the lust of more money
Comment by Meepster23 at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
1446 upvotes, 9 direct replies
/u/spez, I'd like to give you a chance to respond to some of the communication failures around the proposed API changes and the misleading statements you, and the admins have made. I have a much more full write up here[1] as well.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/1459lpb/reddits_failures_of_communication/
Lets start with this redditdev thread
For context on excessive usage, here is a chart showing the average monthly overage, compared to the longstanding rate limit in our developer documentation of 60 queries per minute (86,400 per day):
Top 10 3P apps usage over rate limits
So... The "longstanding rate limit" is actually **per client per user**.. So aggregating them to a client level and claiming they are 400,000% over the limit **is a lie**. There are no two ways about it. **That is a bald faced lie**. Rate limits had always been by user + client. The chart shows them as just client.
Now that's unfortunately not the only complete lie told by the admins in this thread.
Here[2] we see
Having developers ask this question of themselves is the main point of having a cost associated with access in the first place. How might your app be more efficient? Google & Amazon don’t tell us how to be more efficient. It’s up to us as users of these services to optimize our usage to meet our budget.
Well, uhh.. Google and Amazon **absolutely** tell you how to be more effecient and help you in your use of their services.. Also, I'll get into this later, Reddit isn't providing any sort of tooling to SEE your usage stats etc, so how on earth are you even supposed to know unless you build out all your own logging framework... That's insanity..
We are comparing events / user / day across apps with comparable engagement. Apollo is higher than the norm and higher than us.
Is more misleading than a straight up lie.. Reddit's official app uses less **oauth api** requests than Apollo, because Reddit's official app uses their GQL API that they haven't made available to third parties in my understanding. The **total** number of calls made by Reddit's official app vs RiF (I didn't get an iOS emulator set up to capture traffic, sue me), is staggeringly higher on the official app. Not only that but the official app requests the exact same data from both the OAuth API and the GQL api. As well as not properly caching some fairly static data and re-requesting it over and over as well (with a no-cache header so it actually did hit the server each time, nice).
As for API pricing, lets apply Reddit's pricing to themselves to see if it's actually reasonable.
According to this[3], in 2021 Reddit had 52 million users that use the site daily. Say that they make the ~100 calls per user per day that RiF is claimed to use and is held up as a "good" app by Reddit (lol). That means we have 52 million * 100 requests (per day), or 5.2 billion API requests per day. At $.24 per 1000 requests, this means it allegedly costs Reddit ( (5.2 billion / 1000) * $.24 ) $1,248,000 PER DAY, or $455,520,000 per year. Guess what their revenue was in 2021? $350 million dollars... Wait.. what if I reverse that..
3: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/reddit-statistics/
$350 million in revenue... Means 1,458,333,333,333 (1.458 trillion) API requests per year / 365 ~ 4 billion requests per day / 100 per user = 40 million active users per day.
I think I know what they did to get the price... They literally took their revenue, lopped off some amount of daily active users to account for the current un-monetized users by third party, ad blockers etc I'm guessing, and assumed they'd each make 100 API requests and boom, you've got ~ $.24 per 1k requests.
That sounds kind of reasonable on the surface, but that's assume every third party user is actually a monetizable user. It's ignoring the free development work that they are getting. It doesn't account for other sources of revenue like gold, coins, the NFT bullshit etc which are largely independant of the third party apps. And it's assuming a 100% conversion of third party users to first party. None of those are good assumptions!
Reddit failed to communicate every step of the way with this API update. From a complete lack of a vision, full picture, or details around most of the API changes at initial announcement, to sudden cut off of a critical mod tool, to late pricing releases with straight up lies in the details.
I haven't even TOUCHED on the whole accusations of Apollo "threatening" reddit, that's another can of worms and another failure of communication and trust.
Reddit does not have the current infrastructure set up to actually be like an actual tech company to see your API usage that you are going to have to pay for as an app developer.
We still don't have details for a good chunk of changes involving "sexually explicit content".
The pricing is unrealistic.
Any hope of recovery (in my very important opinion, this is my post after all), Reddit **must** indefinitely post pone the API changes until they are honest about their intentions. If you want to kill third party apps, **say it**. I won't agree with you, but you would be honest and I could understand. If you don't want to kill third party apps, get reasonable, because Reddit is currently far from it between the pricing and the extremely vague and bullshit smelling reasons given for sexually explicit content.
Appologies **must** be pubicly made for the misleading statements and outright lies that have been made.
Will you /u/spez commit to any of this?
Comment by Captaincadet at 09/06/2023 at 17:47 UTC
98 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Hey, iOS dev here. Why did you give your devs 30 days for a significant increase and change of terms to API?
My company was using Dark sky and when Apple acquired it, we were given 18 months, no price increase, to find a new platform. This was extended by another 12 months due to covid.
Why has Reddit taken this extreme rushed approach when it knows many of the third party apps work on a yearly subscription, in turn screwing them over financially due to refunds…
Comment by [deleted] at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
4723 upvotes, 19 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by proudcanadianeh at 09/06/2023 at 17:44 UTC
1591 upvotes, 4 direct replies
/u/spez, the hell man. I have been on this website for 15 years now, and I remember the big migration from Digg back in the day.
At best, you had to realize these changes would outrage Reddit's oldest most loyal users. Is this all an attempt to stir us up so you can walk it back to a "middle ground" and let us feel like we have won?
At worst, you are alienating and driving away an important chunk of your user base and setting Reddit down a path that will in essence destroy what it was.
Why? Is it just all about the money? If so, why haven't you been more open with the community about this and discussing paths ahead?
