https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/pfzf58/an_update_on_covid19_policies_and_actions/
created by woodpaneled on 01/09/2021 at 18:03 UTC
355 upvotes, 37 top-level comments (showing 25)
After the conversation began last week on COVID-19 moderation challenges, we did what we usually do when dealing with complex, sticky issues: we sat down for a conversation with our Moderator Council. We've talked about this issue with them before, but hadn't come to a satisfactory conclusion yet.
(The Moderator Council, as you may or may not know, is a diverse group of moderators with whom we share roadmaps, decisions, and other previews in order to gather early feedback. In order to keep new voices coming in, we regularly cycle members in and out. Interested in joining? Nominate yourself or someone else for the Council here[1].)
1: https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/6439292/Community-Council-Application-and-Nomination
They didn’t hold back (something I love about them). But we also got into the nitty-gritty, and a few details that hadn’t been completely clear surfaced from this conversation:
A number of internal teams met to discuss how to address the issues and better clarify our policies and improve our tools and report flows, and today we’ve gathered them here in this post to update you.
​
One important takeaway was that, although we had been enforcing our policies against health misinformation we had been seeing on the platform, it wasn’t clear from the wording of our policies. Our first step is to make sure we clarify this.
Our policies in this area can be broken out into how we deal with (1) health misinformation (falsifiable health-related information that is disseminated regardless of intent), (2) health disinformation (falsifiable health information that is disseminated with an intent to mislead), (3) problematic subreddits that pose misinformation risks, and (4) problematic users who “interfere” with and invade other subreddits to “debate” topics unrelated to the wants/needs of that community. And with regard to health misinformation, we have long interpreted our rule against posting content that “encourages” physical harm as covering health misinformation, meaning falsifiable health information that encourages or poses a significant risk of physical harm to the reader. We’ve clarified in this help center article[2] to accurately reflect that and reduce confusion.
2: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151
​
One of the most concerning pieces of feedback we heard was that mods felt they were seeing intentional interference with regards to COVID-19 information.
This is expressly against our policies and of the utmost importance that we address. We’ve shifted significant resources to digging into these accusations this week. The result is an in-depth report (charts and everything, people) that our Safety team has published today[3]. We should have caught this sooner—thank you for helping highlight it.
Based on the results of that report, we have banned r/nonewnormal this morning for breaking our rules against interference.
Additionally, we’ll be exploring new tools to help you reduce interference from other communities. We’d rather underpromise and overdeliver, but we’ll be running these ideas by our Moderator Council as they come together over the next two quarters.
​
We want the cycle of discovering this sort of interference to be shortened. We know the “misinformation” reporting option can mean a lot of things (and is probably worth revisiting) and that reports of interference get lost within this reporting channel.
With that in mind, our Safety team will also be building a new reporting feature exclusively for moderators to allow you to better provide us signal when you see targeted interference. This should reduce the noise and shorten the period for us to spot and act on this sort of interference. Specs are being put together now and this will be a priority for the next few weeks. We will subsequently review the results internally and with our Moderator Council and evaluate the usefulness of this feature.
We know that parsing misinformation can be extremely time-consuming and you already have a lot on your plates, so this new report flow will be visible for moderators and sends reports **only to Reddit admins, not to moderators.**
​
We’ve had a number of additional or new quarantine-evading subreddits highlighted to us or caught by internal teams in the last few weeks, and today, we have quarantined 54 subreddits. This number may increase over the coming weeks as we review additional reports.
--
This is a very tough time and a fraught situation. As with everything, there’s always room for improvement, which is why “Evolve” has been one of our core values for years. What *is* always true at Reddit is that both admins and moderators want what’s best for Reddit, even if we often have to go back and forth a bit to figure out the best way to get there. We’ll continue to discuss this topic internally, in r/modsupport, and with our Moderator Council. And we’ll continue to work with you to plot an evolving path forward that makes Reddit better, bit by bit.
We have the whole crew who worked on this together to answer questions here, and we’d specifically love to hear feedback on the above items and any edge cases to consider or clarifications you need.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 18:09 UTC
68 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by nmork at 01/09/2021 at 18:07 UTC
110 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Was /r/NoNewNormal banned solely for interfering and brigading, or was the mis/disinformation taken into consideration as well?
Comment by ESF-hockeeyyy at 01/09/2021 at 18:15 UTC
95 upvotes, 3 direct replies
Our misinformation reporting flow is vaguely-worded and thus vaguely-used, and there’s a specific need for identifying interference.
You need a standard. You need something to contrast the information to. That's an 'authoritative source' according to /u/Spez, who also specifically named the CDC as one example.
The misinformation rule is so vaguely worded, it seems intentional.
How can you possibly say that this is simply interference, when the real terms are misinformation and disinformation? This is an outrageous copout and one that continues to allow your security team and executives to not hold yourselves accountable to.
Comment by Watchful1 at 01/09/2021 at 18:08 UTC
54 upvotes, 0 direct replies
In light of this new data, do you think the post by spez was premature?
Comment by Ghigs at 01/09/2021 at 18:20 UTC
72 upvotes, 1 direct replies
(1) health misinformation (falsifiable health-related information that is disseminated regardless of intent
You should probably look up what falsifiable means. Falsifiable claims are the entire basis of science. Things that aren't falsifiable are not scientific.
Comment by TheNewPoetLawyerette at 01/09/2021 at 18:17 UTC
33 upvotes, 1 direct replies
A report tool just for mods? Is it christmas already?
Comment by baconn at 01/09/2021 at 18:44 UTC
27 upvotes, 2 direct replies
1. health misinformation (falsifiable health-related information that is disseminated regardless of intent)
What does this mean? I'm on r/CFS and a couple of other chronic illness subs that cater to people with controversial medical conditions. The CDC long denied that chronic fatigue syndrome was a real condition, it's only in the last few years that mainstream researchers have begun to take it seriously.
If you aren't going to consider intent, a lot of well-meaning subs could be banned for opposing the current consensus on treatment of various illnesses.
Comment by justcool393 at 01/09/2021 at 18:06 UTC
20 upvotes, 1 direct replies
With that in mind, our Safety team will also be building a new reporting feature exclusively for moderators to allow you to better provide us signal when you see targeted interference. This should reduce the noise and shorten the period for us to spot and act on this sort of interference. Specs are being put together now and this will be a priority for the next few weeks. We will subsequently review the results internally and with our Moderator Council and evaluate the usefulness of this feature.
Quick question: is this *only* for health misinformation or will this replace how we used to send in targeted influence reports (i.e. the investigations@reddit.zendesk.com email address)?
Comment by bleeding-paryl at 01/09/2021 at 18:15 UTC
23 upvotes, 2 direct replies
We should have caught this sooner—thank you for helping highlight it.
This is what caught my eye first and foremost. I have absolutely no ill-will towards anyone on the Reddit team. I legitimately respect your ability to handle situations for the most part considering the behemoth that is Reddit.
I do want to make note of that though- why are the mods acting as your first clue towards this disinformation brigade? Do you have any way of preventing this in the future? Because of how bad this disinformation has been, do you now have tools to work with that will highlight these types of troubling issues for other serious things so that we don't have a similar issue about something just as drastic?
While this is a great save by the mods, as we legitimately came together in a big way, I don't think that volunteers should have to get to this point for you to take notice of large campaigns set up to cause confusion and harm.
Again though, I really appreciate the admin team, and I want to thank you for being open about things and listening to what we have to say.
Comment by Schmetterling190 at 02/09/2021 at 01:41 UTC
9 upvotes, 2 direct replies
How will subs that are getting caught in the crossfire get support? R/covidlonghaulers has been quarantined and we do not agree that our content is offensive or spreading misinformation. We are a support group for post-acute covid syndrome
Comment by garrypig at 01/09/2021 at 20:51 UTC
13 upvotes, 0 direct replies
What happens with grey areas and revised information? If a community was banned for saying A when B was the information at the time and then B is revised because A is actually correct, what happens?
Comment by db2 at 01/09/2021 at 19:23 UTC
23 upvotes, 0 direct replies
As with everything, there’s always room for improvement, which is why “Evolve” has been one of our core values for years.
You should tell spez that then, or better yet get rid of him. Seriously, did you not read the post he made in response to being asked to do something about the covid misinformation? I'm really asking here, don't ignore this.
Comment by binchlord at 01/09/2021 at 18:26 UTC
11 upvotes, 2 direct replies
This is all great to hear. I don't expect a post mortem on it, but I hope the massive communications issues from last week are also being internally evaluated to see how communication with moderators and the public can be improved
Comment by ThaddeusJP at 01/09/2021 at 18:12 UTC
23 upvotes, 2 direct replies
We’ve had a number of additional or new quarantine-evading subreddits highlighted to us or caught by internal teams in the last few weeks, and today, we have quarantined 54 subreddits. This number may increase over the coming weeks as we review additional reports.
I mean, why not just ban them and be done? If someone is CONSTANTLY skirting the rules just remove them! It's like telling a naughty toddler "this is your 54th warning to stop drawing on the walls!" Just take the crayon away!
Edit: remove the users and ban the subs is what I'm saying. Like IP level banning.
Comment by CarFlipJudge at 01/09/2021 at 18:10 UTC
14 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Thank you. Sometimes being a mod while being brigades is like yelling into the void. We report, ban and do everything we can while imploring admins to help and all we get is an auto response.
Comment by Meepster23 at 01/09/2021 at 18:13 UTC
18 upvotes, 0 direct replies
What specific steps are you taking at an organizational level to address these issues proactively instead of reactively and only after your hand is forced by the media?
Why should we believe any of this is in good faith?
Comment by mmmmmmBacon12345 at 01/09/2021 at 19:58 UTC
13 upvotes, 1 direct replies
How our existing policies apply to misinformation and disinformation is not clear to mods and users. This is especially painful for mods trying to figure out what to enforce.
This is completely clear to users. It doesn't apply. Accurate statements are suspendable if reddit finds them to be contrary to its best interests like say exposing the shady past of an admin
Our policies in this area can be broken out into how we deal with (1) health misinformation (falsifiable health-related information that is disseminated regardless of intent), (2) health disinformation (falsifiable health information that is disseminated with an intent to mislead), (3) problematic subreddits that pose misinformation risks, and (4) problematic users who “interfere” with and invade other subreddits to “debate” topics unrelated to the wants/needs of that community.
Ughhhh again with the admin incompetence
We can't trust you to make policy if you don't have a grasp of the words you are using. You want two things here
1. Provably false not falsifiable
2. A proof reader
We should have caught this sooner—thank you for helping highlight it.
A phrase said every time you try to roll out a new feature that fails catastrophically and you're forced to roll it back. I can no longer attribute this to malice alone, you're just idiots through and through who happen to be malicious but are too incompetent to achieve your goals
We’ve had a number of additional or new quarantine-evading subreddits highlighted to us or caught by internal teams in the last few weeks, and today, we have quarantined 54 subreddits.
But WHY?!? Are you going to do something or just hope to appease the mods and get the traffic back? Are they representative of what reddit wants on the site? Clearly not if you quarantined them so why take the half measure?
How about you grow a pair and actually do *something* like we've been asking you to. Commit to your actions whether it is supporting the crazy idiots who want to take over or purging the crazy idiots who want to take over
Until such time as you act to purge them we have no choice but to assume that you, spez, and all admins still working for reddit are anti-vaxxers chugging horse cream because you've shown no sign of being competent individuals with a sense of responsibility to the community you hope to build
Comment by FearAzrael at 01/09/2021 at 18:29 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
One thing that has jumped out to me in this post is the emphasis on quantitative rather than qualitative.
If there were subs devoted to racial hate, we would not be seeing statistics about their prevalence or impact, Reddit would just ban them outright based on their content.
This is not the case with Coronavirus misinformation. In spite of the fact that people are dying, this content is not being banned based on a value system. It is being analyzed from a statistics perspective.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 20:55 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Might want to do some housekeeping. Check your counsel members.
Comment by Gray32339 at 02/09/2021 at 11:54 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
"Problematic users who "interfere" with and invade other subreddits to "debate" topics unrelated to that community." So, the 900+ subs that participated in brigading NNN weren't invading? You guys are pathetic lmao
Comment by Bond4141 at 02/09/2021 at 15:43 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
And how are you going to define misinformation? Who gets to be the arbitrator of truth in a time where everything changes by the week?
Comment by cuteman at 01/09/2021 at 20:42 UTC
12 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Yay, more inconsistently enforced rules which empower supermod cabals and erodes user freedom!
You're almost digg!
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 18:34 UTC
10 upvotes, 1 direct replies
This is especially painful for mods trying to figure out what to enforce.
This will lead to moderators becoming progressively more strict, due to not understanding what the "line" is. I refer to this as "mission creep".
I don't know if that's a concern or not to the admins, but it's a real effect that I've witnessed.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 18:16 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
When will you ban the subreddits currently under quarantine?
Comment by Gusfoo at 01/09/2021 at 19:48 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
The Moderator Council
Well, that's not creepy and filled with corruption at all!