https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/xyxtf1/advice_on_spouse_decisions/
created by SignificanceLeast145 on 08/10/2022 at 17:02 UTC*
417 upvotes, 60 top-level comments (showing 25)
Been married to my partner for 11 years, with one child. I’m happy for most of it, but it’s been rocky. In the last decade, she has attempted businesses without much success, had multiple jobs in which she was never happy or had productive growth, she seems to just not care about doing good work, she was twice let go from her role. In her current role, she prefers to quit, to take a break and find a job that she wants to pursue long term. I think she’s at a point of giving up her side business for good, since going into some debt. Which I think is a good decision, a business that isn’t worth the effort.
After years of ups and downs, I don’t know what to do, continue supporting her with her needs, which is quitting her current day job during this rather down period and uncertainty in the job market. She wants to take a break and find a job where in an industry and product she would be passionate about.
Any advice from those that reached FIRE that had spouses with lack of financial (and emotional) stability? I love her, she’s a good person and I’m trying to be supportive of her needs to take a break, but also feel like I haven’t done a good job setting expectations and consideration of family needs (paying expenses), doing what’s needed in the moment.
[Edit] I’m on path to FIRE, and though this isn’t a specific investment/fund question, it is a principle and behavior that would impact long term FIRE success.
[Edit] Thank you community for all your support. I did not expect this much response of diverse and thoughtful guidance.
[Final Edit] Dear community, My closing comment unless there is another good suggestion that hasn’t already been shared. I appreciate all the input, here are the next steps we aligned together: 1) My partner to take an extended break from work in Jan. Step back to step ahead 2) Stop the side biz for good! Develop plan and double down on professional career for second half of 2023 3) Take professional counseling and read up books 4) Apply principle of "Opposite could be worse" - See the best in each other, accept shortcomings 5) Keep FIRE'ing away. Double down on career, continue growth mindset for higher earnings (and savings)
Comment by Rarvyn at 09/10/2022 at 01:10 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Just a friendly reminder from your mod team: This post has received a few reports, but it was left up as it is fostering some good discussion and the topic of how to manage finances when two people in a relationship might have different priorities is a legitimate one. Comments so far have been appropriate, but we wanted to make sure that everyone is acutely aware of Rule 7: No gender, politics or circle-jerking. The OP never stated their own gender in their post - and neither the gender of themselves nor their spouse is relevant to the advice being given.
Thank you all for approaching this topic in a rule-following fashion.
Comment by WhyAreSurgeonsAllMDs at 08/10/2022 at 17:15 UTC
575 upvotes, 3 direct replies
Not FIRE yet, but I’d recommend:
Definitely ditch the money losing business, consider having the business go into bankruptcy if you are able to separate that from personal finances.
Definitely talk to her about your concerns and get to a point where you can share the same expectations. That may mean that you change your expectations. You have a kid to support together, but it sounds like she’s burnt out and her mental health should be important to you.
How you divide money earning responsibilities is completely up to the two of you, but you should talk about it and agree on it.
If you think you’ve reached FIRE and she hasn’t, think again. Your finances are necessarily mingled at this point - so if she isn’t FI, you aren’t either.
Comment by highly_agreeable at 08/10/2022 at 17:18 UTC
145 upvotes, 3 direct replies
It sounds like it’s time to see a couples counselor. While I’m sure she understands your goals and you do hers, you are not on the same page. It’s better to get some help now to improvement your communication/understanding.
Comment by bondsman333 at 08/10/2022 at 17:34 UTC
131 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Is she happy outside of work?
If she can find meaning through volunteering or hobbies or side projects (even if they are net neutral) then she should focus on that while keeping a job that pays the bills.
I learned a long time ago to separate work from life and happiness. I’ve had career ups and downs and sometimes they spill over into my happiness- but for now I’m working on a super boring product line for a fortune 100 that affords me plenty of down time and vacation to pursue my true interests which are not profitable at all.
Comment by Prsue at 08/10/2022 at 17:58 UTC
71 upvotes, 5 direct replies
I'm ADHD and feel like i relate a lot to her. My career interests vary and dwindle as easy as they come. All I've wanted to do was find something i can be passionate about doing, a job i would love. However there isn't anything that fits my criteria. But i tend to lean much more towards creative outlets, i love doing my own thing. I feel like that's how she feels.
The hard truth i think I'm realizing though. Is I don't think there's any career out there I'm truly interested in. Which can be discouraging. But in the near future i would love to have my own house, my own privacy to explore my creative hobbies outside a work environment. So setting that as a goal is sort of the driving factor to stay working, or looking for a better paying job for me.
So what is your wife's interests outside of the work environment? What does she love doing most? Maybe she also doesn't have any true career interests, which is fine. The idea is to retire early anyways. Perhaps making that her goal may be enough drive for her to stay in a work environment or pursue a higher paying job for the time. If the end goal is spending more time doing what she loves, it may make it easier for her. As long as the job it isn't terribly awful on her.
Take everyone's advice here. But most importantly, communicate and work with your wife to help find a healthy balance for her. Validate how she feels and see what would work for her, help make this easier for her. Without using the word "but"
Comment by SuperNoise5209 at 08/10/2022 at 22:40 UTC*
26 upvotes, 1 direct replies
My wife is also not a great earner. She hustles and works hard, but has struggled more with finding fulfilling, well-paid work than I have. She was fired once and quit another time (both were toxic small businesses and I feel like it was just a bad situation all around - other friends were also fired from these places despite being talented, hard workers). At the moment she's working part time while going back to get a grad degree that likely will have a low ROI but makes her happy.
I think my approach here has been: I'm committed to being with her, and I'm ok with having a slower path to financial independence. I'm lucky that I'm earning enough to cover all our needs if necessary. Since we're relying on my income, I'm just really big on saving in case I were to lose my job. Also, I carry life and disability insurance to try and reduce the risk to our family.
But, we have clear and consistent communication about finances and goals. She's on board for us being frugal and working towards FIRE. She may not have my income, but she finds lots of ways to contribute to us saving money - hunts down good deals, does killer meal prep, finds ways to stretch leftovers for days, etc.
Comment by gsimd at 08/10/2022 at 18:09 UTC
121 upvotes, 6 direct replies
Something that improved my marriage dramatically was when I realized **the opposite could be worse**. Years ago, my Dad was visiting and one of my kids was acting up in a room nearby. My wife is super lenient with the kids and my Dad and I were both frustrated by her inaction.
My Dad scowled and asked "Does she ever get mad?". Instead of piling on, I said *"No, it's great. Nobody is perfect and the opposite would be worse. Whoever you marry is either going to be too soft or too hard on the kids. I'd much rather have someone who loves them too much than the opposite."*
The funny part was this was total bullshit. I made it up just to to shut him up. But, the minute it came out of my mouth I realized I was right. From that moment on I have applied "the opposite could be worse" to all kinds of situations. It makes life better.
I wish my wife wasn't so messy. But, having her follow me around with a white glove being disappointed in me all the time would be much worse.
You get the point. When you are struggling with your partner just remember, it could be worse. Nothing is ever exactly what you want.
Comment by blkblade at 08/10/2022 at 23:42 UTC
22 upvotes, 1 direct replies
It's hard to gauge without knowing who is doing what with the child. Because within the first few years of a child's life, a nuclear family can realistically only have one income without quickly burning out and going mentally insane, and then putting their relationships in jeopardy. Additionally, fathers who are absent breadwinners throughout the week generally have the less demanding role.
Comment by warturtle_ at 09/10/2022 at 01:07 UTC
14 upvotes, 1 direct replies
From reading your comments it sure seems you spent too much on your house in SF or similar and that’s the fundamental issue here.
Comment by yenraelmao at 08/10/2022 at 19:44 UTC
21 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Are you me, but with the genders switched? I don’t have too much advise, just lots of commiseration. In my case, my partner has high aspirations and tried various times to get his own startup going. He quit the latest one after a blow out with his very toxic cofounder. I get his passion, I get his desire to be his own boss, but our lack of financial stability is hard on both of us. We can fire if we just both had jobs, but that hasn’t been the case for quite a few years. We also live in a HCOL area . I suppose the one thing I can say for my partner is that he hasn’t been let go, he usually quits to start his own business. Anyways, I also get the need to support my partners mental health , but I feel like holding my own boundaries around whAt I find acceptable is also important. Like he can take some time to find a good job, but he must be looking and not give up any reasonable job offers without serious discussion with me. I’m hoping this works out, but I’m kind of scared for him and for us that his lack of commitment to “regular” jobs would be the end of us.
Comment by [deleted] at 08/10/2022 at 17:22 UTC
46 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Has she considered attending career counseling? Surprisingly, there are licensed therapists that specialize in careers (although therapists are often associated with mental health issues).
It might be wise for her to seek some type of mental health therapy and career counseling that can target the underlying issues she is facing.
Comment by nifFIer at 09/10/2022 at 12:36 UTC
16 upvotes, 0 direct replies
From your comments, if I read them correctly:
My questions would be:
Anyways, she’s likely justifiably burnt out, get couples therapy, and her taking a career break would still be less costly than pushing her into rushing into things that require more money.
Side note: By husband makes $200k and pushed me to quit my career because it was making me miserable and had very little room for progression. We’re in therapy and the therapist was ecstatic to see me quit and has noted the increase in happiness and mental health in us both due to me quitting. He’s supporting me while I learn new skills and he’s appreciated me being there to support him emotionally now that I’m in better mental health. There have been clear benefits and his life has improved since we made this decision. We have more happy moments by far now.
Comment by rainwrapped at 08/10/2022 at 20:06 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Is your wife onboard with your FIRE plans? If not I would suggest sharing the info and finding somewhere in the blog sphere some information so she understands it, the math, goals etc. I am a lot like your wife and FIRE is the thing that keeps me going when I don’t think I can bear another day at work. Outside interests help too but having goals you are working on together may help.
Comment by 10bayerl at 08/10/2022 at 22:55 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
For her: have her read Designing Your Life. She needs to put thought into her path AFTER her job while she still has her job. Those things can happen at the same time. And Designing Your Life is really helpful for this. I don’t think she should just quit because who is to say she’s guaranteed to even find something she likes better? It sounds like she doesn’t even know what she wants yet. We really idealize the “quit and follow my dreams” mentality and I think it doesn’t have to be that way. I hope this helps!
Comment by catjuggler at 08/10/2022 at 17:45 UTC
15 upvotes, 1 direct replies
If this was my spouse, I’d want her to find a new job before quitting unless your financial situation makes that unnecessary
Comment by blamemeididit at 09/10/2022 at 13:06 UTC
6 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Your spouse is going to have to come to grips with the fact that she may have to work a job she is not passionate about. 99% of us do.
It also looks like based on some of the comments that she does not need to work because you make enough to support everyone. That may be causing a lack of motivation to go out and earn money. Especially if she is caring for a child.
Comment by [deleted] at 08/10/2022 at 17:20 UTC
28 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I just have a question regarding the businesses she’s attempted. Has she been in multi-level-marketing businesses without success? Or are these her own start ups? Not that it really matters, but no one succeeds in MLMs unless they’re the first and this could be very discouraging to someone who doesn’t understand it’s a scheme and result in debt. I think having a serious conversation about her contributions to the family expenses needs to be had to put you both on the right track. I empathize with her as I’m in the first few years of running my own photography business and my man makes a lot more than me. I’m staying optimistic and trying to limit my spending a increase my contribution, but sometimes I get really down about it. Wishing you both the best 🙏🏼
Comment by [deleted] at 08/10/2022 at 20:22 UTC
14 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[removed]
Comment by [deleted] at 08/10/2022 at 20:30 UTC
31 upvotes, 2 direct replies
This is precisely why the "follow your passion" advice is such horrendous toxic garbage.
You do a job to get paid. A rare minority can love what they do but for 99% of people work is at least mildly unpleasant. Constantly quitting careers and starting new things but not finding success in any of them is absolutely miserable
If she wants to do whatever she's passionate about, the way to go is fire first.
On the other hand, since you're funding her wishes and whims, she's already functionally FIRE and won't have any incentive to listen to you tell her the above
Comment by Ultimate-ART at 08/10/2022 at 18:05 UTC
24 upvotes, 1 direct replies
"The milk carton rule is based on a real-life example found in a psychology textbook, which tells the story of two people we'll call Vicky and Peter.
Every morning, Vicki gets up early for work, makes coffee, and runs off to the office. Many mornings, though, Vicki forgets to put the milk for her coffee back in the fridge. When her husband Peter wakes up a few hours later, he finds a carton of warm milk on the counter.
Over and over, Peter gets frustrated and confronts Vicki about it when she returns home. Vicki always apologizes, but she continues to make the same mistake. Peter brings up the problem one day to his therapist, to show the type of behavior he has to deal with.
T: "How often does she do this?"
P: "I've lost count."
T: "For how many years?"
P: "At least 10 years, ever since she took this job."
T: "So, do you base your prediction of what will happen every morning based on what she does or what you want her to do?"
P: "I base it on what's right. And what she'd do if she truly loved me."
T: "So, let me get this straight: She's done this hundreds, possibly thousands of times."
P: "Yup. See how inconsiderate she is!"
T: "But after hundreds or thousands of times, you're still shocked at her behavior. Shouldn't you expect her to leave out the milk? Are you basing your expectation on what you want or what she's done?"
P: "I guess on what I want."
T: "Now, how would you feel differently if you based your expectation on what she actually did, instead of what you wanted her to do?"
P: "I guess I wouldn't be so angry. I'd just get two containers of milk." "
Comment by [deleted] at 09/10/2022 at 00:20 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Seems like she tries to do things with the Passion mindset, but should instead focus on the craftsman mindset. Suggest her give So Good They Can’t Ignore You a read.
Comment by [deleted] at 09/10/2022 at 02:15 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by gerd50501 at 09/10/2022 at 10:30 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
how much money do you make? Can you afford to support her? I think 1 income families with kids is really risky, because what happens if you get laid off? We have had 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth. If we have a 3rd (and we probably will) we are in a recession. This is stagflation. A recession with high inflation. This is not a good time to quit your job.
She can look for a new job, but its really irresponsible to quit her job. It sounds like she won't change and will never be happy. I don't like my job either. I do the bare minimum to be honest. However, I have saved the bulk of my income and invested it for over 20 years and don't really need to work anymore. If there is no upward mobility there is no reason to work hard. There is a reason to not cut the family income and leave 1 partner and sole earner.
I think this is more of a relationship question than a FIRE question. You may want to post this on one of the relationship subs. I dont see an issue with job hopping or trying to start your own business. I have had 20 jobs in 20 years. However, I dont quit and go without income, I just quit when I get a new job. Going without income is really risky to most families especially in a time of high inflation and a likely recession.
Comment by WorkingMinimum at 08/10/2022 at 20:11 UTC
23 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Would love to see this conversation if the genders were swapped.
Support your wife however you can, but she’s an adult who has full agency to clean up her life. Be careful not to enable her failures by “saving” her every time she flunks.
If it were me, I would want a concrete plan from her and I would want to see her working deliberately to meet the goals you set together.
Comment by [deleted] at 08/10/2022 at 17:43 UTC
11 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Is there an easy street, low pay job where she can bring benefits & maybe a 403b or 457 to the table? I suppose not everyone can just kill it at work. The County gardeners in my area have great benefits (literally, not pejorative)