-13 upvotes, 22 direct replies (showing 22)
View submission: Announcing Online Presence Indicators
Thanks for sharing your understandable concerns. I’m happy to share more about how we’re approaching many of the things you’ve raised.
“Those of us who are chronically harassed and stalked -- how do we opt out of this manner of broadcasting telemetry altogether?”
You can disable this feature entirely by toggling your presence indicator to “Hidden.” You can do this on both old and new Reddit, and it will not change regardless of what device you use to browse Reddit. When your indicator is toggled to “Hiding” no other user can see your online status.
“Those of us who moderate communities where literal hundreds and thousands of accounts join and wait for "the mods are asleep" to attempt to deluge the community with shock porn, hateful image macros, rape threats, death threats, ASCII image art depicting pornography and scatological acts -- How do we opt out of this manner of broadcasting telemetry altogether?”
This is an important call-out and is something that we’ve thought about and discussed further during broader discussions with moderators. These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
Those of us who have been unlucky enough to have been doxxed, and for whom this manner of telemetry broadcast will alert the people who want to rape and murder us that we are home -- or out of the house -- or asleep -- how do we opt out of this manner of broadcast telemetry?
What will this broadcast telemetry do to make Reddit safer to use for women and gender / sexual minorities?
We’re building out several safety features that we’re aiming to have ready for the general audience launch that we hope will address several of the things you called out. One of these features is making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users within that specific subreddit.
Will this be turned on by default for everyone? Will it be turned off by default for everyone?
Yes - this will be turned on by default and that’s a large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance and why we made the opt-out process so easy. We want to give everyone the chance to opt-out of this feature before we make the presence indicator public-facing.
Can the "Hiding" status indicator label be changed to something that doesn't convey an active intent and agency?
This is something we went back and forth on, and we should have been more clear about our reasoning in the post. We chose the word "Hiding" because if a user has switched the toggle to disable this feature they're still technically online even though it would not be viewable to anyone else. We didn't want there to be any confusion in the broader sense of the term.
We will have a Help Center article explaining all of this before we go live with our general audience launch.
Comment by SnausageFest at 04/03/2021 at 01:10 UTC*
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
You can disable this feature entirely by toggling your presence indicator to “Hidden.” You can do this on both old and new Reddit, and it will not change regardless of what device you use to browse Reddit. When your indicator is toggled to “Hiding” no other user can see your online status.
Please be more specific. I can't find this. It's not helpful to just say "it's in your profile" and posting images that are just the reddit app and new reddit. If you say it works on old reddit, please explain how it works on old reddit. Where, specifically?
Comment by bgh251f2 at 04/03/2021 at 01:02 UTC*
16 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is an important call-out and is something that we’ve thought about and discussed further during broader discussions with moderators. These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
This would be useless, like the users that harass us don't go to any post that we make anywhere to do that...
We’re building out several safety features that we’re aiming to have ready for the general audience launch that we hope will address several of the things you called out. One of these features is making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users within that specific subreddit.
Wow, like ban evasions don't happen so frequently that there are people that confessed being banned from some of our communities in dozens of different accounts...
edit:
This is an important call-out and is something that we’ve thought about and discussed further during broader discussions with moderators. These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
I would love to know who the hell are these moderators that you guys talk with before making these decisions that are so damn terrible. Probably not any of the ones that asked for you guys to help against harassment, doxxing, ban evasions, etc.
edit2:
Yes - this will be turned on by default and that’s a large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance and why we made the opt-out process so easy. We want to give everyone the chance to opt-out of this feature before we make the presence indicator public-facing.
Because of course a post in /r/changelog(that has less subscribers than most of our communities) is a really public way to get everyone to know about it...
Also you can only deactivate it on new reddit, that most mods of larger communities don't want to use because it is terrible and heavy.
And of course the post in changelog is very informative because we that moderate non-english communities will always have a complete understanding of english...
Comment by TheBananaKing at 04/03/2021 at 02:25 UTC*
19 upvotes, 1 direct replies
'Hiding' is shitty horrible dark-pattern bullshit with all kinds of emotional baggage attached. Why not *really* twist the screws and call it 'spineless coward'?
Any opt-out privacy downgrade is NOT OK, and it's also NOT OK that you're announcing this to such a tiny audience.
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
Imagine if Apple decided that everyone's photo library would be shared by default, with an opt-out button buried under three layers of menus, *and that you only found out about this from reading an update changelog on a developer site*.
And that the phone called you a fucking coward if you pressed it.
Not OK.
ETA: and where the flying fuck are your UX team?
If they haven't repeatedly screamed all this at you, they're worthless and should be fired on the spot, because *this is kindergarten-level shit*.
If they *have* and you just overrode them anyway, then what the hell are *you* doing in the job?
Comment by Joebyrd1 at 04/03/2021 at 03:36 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is something we went back and forth on, and we should have been more clear about our reasoning in the post. We chose the word "Hiding" because if a user has switched the toggle to disable this feature they're still technically online even though it would not be viewable to anyone else. We didn't want there to be any confusion in the broader sense of the term.
I'm not sure why anyone is even talking about the verbiage, the main point here is that it's an irrelevant feature designed for... what exactly? At the moment you say that it's only visible to me, ok? Why do I need to know if I'm online? Then you say it will later be visible to other android users, ok? Why do they need to know anything about my status? Then you say that there will be a full rollout later on but that still begs the question of why? If I'm on my cell phone and I don't actively have reddit open and someone sends me a message or posts a comment on a post of mine it pops up as a notification which 100% negates any possible need for me to ever be actively online, and it 100% negates any need for someone else to know if I'm on or not. If I'm on, I'll see it right away, if I'm not on I'll see it later. I have more than enough engagement with my fellow redditors, I'm not desperate for more and if I was, i would just start posting things in subreddits all over. Also, are you aware that most of us do not follow other people? Are you aware that most of us don't message other people directly? What's the point of my status showing online if they can't see it anyway? I'm always amazed at the kind of crap someone trying to keep their job can come up with. I don't want an opt-in or out, I don't want any of this, I frankly don't want my "actively online or not" information collected at all by anyone... ever.
Comment by rasherdk at 04/03/2021 at 03:40 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Yes - this will be turned on by default and that’s a large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance and why we made the opt-out process so easy.
Stop lying. You are not announcing it in any meaningful way! This subreddit has 47000 subscribers.
A violation of privacy that can be turned off is still a net negative.
You are in violation of the GDPR **and your own goddamn privacy policy** which both state that users must give active consent to reddit sharing their data.
This feature *must* be made opt-in. There is no valid excuse not to.
Comment by lianodel at 04/03/2021 at 01:36 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
If you wanted to give everyone the chance to retain their privacy, why not make it opt-in?
If you wanted this to be visible, why is it posted here and not /r/announcements? Why does the post in /r/modnews have its comments disabled?
If you wanted to add information about online activity for live discussions & such, how was the indicator of people currently reading a sub inadequate?
If you care about users' safety, why is this beginning to roll out while you are still "building out several safety features?"
Seriously, who is this *for*?
Comment by Quillava at 04/03/2021 at 01:45 UTC*
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
We didn't want there to be any confusion in the broader sense of the term.
If you didn't want any confusion, use some extremely common phrases that every single social network/chat application have been using for decades. "Appear Offline" or "Invisible"? Its obvious you're intentionally trying to get users to not use that option.
Plus, who would be confused by setting their status to "offline"? You think users would panic thinking they accidentally logged out of reddit or crashed their internet when they set their status to "offline"?
Comment by Frogging101 at 04/03/2021 at 01:02 UTC
28 upvotes, 3 direct replies
large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance
Please *announce* it in /r/announcements, then. The readership of /r/changelog is minuscule in comparison.
Comment by deadoon at 04/03/2021 at 01:48 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You can disable this feature entirely by toggling your presence indicator to “Hidden.” You can do this on both old and new Reddit, and it will not change regardless of what device you use to browse Reddit. When your indicator is toggled to “Hiding” no other user can see your online status.
That makes is very obvious that the user is concealing their status, thus negating any benefit the online indicator has in protecting a user's information.
Display a hidden status as offline indistinguishable from a legitimate offline user or don't have an online indicator at all.
Comment by Nokanii at 04/03/2021 at 01:50 UTC
10 upvotes, 0 direct replies
These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
....So then they just open up each mod's userpage and check their comments to see if any of them are active. You know people are going to do this. This is not an appropriate measure.
Comment by fooey at 04/03/2021 at 05:31 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
One of these features is making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users within that specific subreddit.
That's such blatant bullshittery it's amazingly insulting
Nobody would ever be devious enough to do something like logout or open an incognito window
The only way a sub level ban is is any way relevant is in an invite only private sub
You should be humiliated that anyone at team reddit would have the gall to suggest something with such bad faith justifications
Comment by [deleted] at 04/03/2021 at 01:15 UTC
9 upvotes, 1 direct replies
why we’re announcing this in advance
Please make sure to announce this as clearly as possible, in a popup or other incredibly obvious means that this is being rolled out. Every user that receives this feature during testing and when it rolls out to everyone should be 100% aware of it. I'm only writing this here because I saw a post on /r/SubredditDrama about it.
Comment by LarryBeard at 04/03/2021 at 08:26 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is an important call-out and is something that we’ve thought about and discussed further during broader discussions with moderators. These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
Key word : At a glance.. That means that with a bit of work, they can.
We’re building out several safety features that we’re aiming to have ready for the general audience launch that we hope will address several of the things you called out. **One of these features is making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users within that specific subreddit.**
You do understand that people frequent multiple subreddits right ? Who's stopping anyone to check on another subreddit where they are not banned ?
Yes - this will be turned on by default and that’s a large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance and why we made the opt-out process so easy. We want to give everyone the chance to opt-out of this feature before we make the presence indicator public-facing.
NO NO NO NO. You NEVER force this on people.
Comment by Bardfinn at 04/03/2021 at 01:13 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I want to acknowledge that you took the time and effort to answer, and to thank you for doing so.
Comment by RoseTyler38 at 04/03/2021 at 03:12 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Yes - this will be turned on by default
Why?
that’s a large part of the reason why we’re announcing this in advance
Surely you already understand how small of a percentage of the whole Reddit membership base subscribes to this sub...right? What is your plan to make sure more Redditors know about your plan in advance?
Comment by [deleted] at 04/03/2021 at 01:22 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Fuck off. You know full well making this on by default means most people will never turn it off.
Comment by SpunkVolcano at 04/03/2021 at 12:10 UTC*
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
We chose the word "Hiding" because if a user has switched the toggle to disable this feature they're still technically online even though it would not be viewable to anyone else.
I cannot think of another system that communicates presence, even going back to the days of MSN Messenger and AIM, that did not show "Appear Offline" as simply "Offline" to everyone but you. What the hell kind of discussions are you having where you manage to somehow come to the completely opposite conclusion from literally every IM and online presence vendor I can think of? What the fuck do you know better than Microsoft/AIM/Lotus/Mirabilis/Facebook/Yahoo!/etc/etc/etc?
I don't want to show as "Hidden". I don't want to show as "maybe online, but doesn't want you to know that". ***I want to show as "Offline". Period. FIX IT.***
Comment by uh-okay-I-guess at 04/03/2021 at 16:24 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is an important call-out and is something that we’ve thought about and discussed further during broader discussions with moderators. These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
This doesn't solve the problem. Not only can users quickly click into moderator profiles to check their status, if the indicator is accessible in any way, malicious actors can automatically collect the data -- say, via a browser extension a la RES -- and display it in the location most convenient for them. It would probably take an hour for one person to write.
Even better, the data could be hosted externally, let's say, on "are-the-mods-asleep.com," where it could be permanently stored, analyzed to determine patterns of activity, and so on. This will take a few more hours of one-time effort for the bad guys, so you can expect it to happen within a couple of days after this feature is launched, and it will bypass all of your proposed safety features, since the information can be collected via a sleeper account that is not banned or blocked.
I think you're making a bunch of mistaken assumptions: that the bad actors are unsophisticated, that they don't plan or coordinate their activities, that they lack software engineering skills, that they are just bored kids who will give up immediately upon encountering the tiniest inconvenience. Maybe some are, but they aren't the ones who matter.
If "we hear you on the safety aspects" is not mere words, please choose an option that actually stops the bad guys. Your proposed fixes don't. They just make them say "huh! that's annoying" for a day or two, until they have built the tools to get around the problem permanently.
Comment by [deleted] at 05/03/2021 at 06:58 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
One of these features is making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users within that specific subreddit.
Stalkers will open up incognito windows or separate browsers to bypass this, and **you know it**.
Why aren't you announcing this on the r/announcements sub? It seems that you are trying to "hide" this information from users.
Why are you making this opt-out? You know that a lot of casual users won't know about this feature until they get spammed with harassment.
This feature sells out your most vulnerable users for a feature that no one wants and **you know it**.
Comment by shiverdog99 at 04/03/2021 at 14:28 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
These indicators are currently not planned to show within the mod list, so users will not be able to see at a glance if all mods are online.
That makes little to no difference at all, especially if it's a small subreddit with just 1 or 2 mods. Making it slightly more inconvenient isn't fixing the problem.
Comment by ladfrombrad at 05/03/2021 at 14:25 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
making it so that users who are banned from a subreddit will not be able to see the online status of users
This is the most ridiculous excuse for a "feature" you want to bring in I've ever heard, and you know as well as me what *my* alternate accounts are.
Or should we just sign out and then carry on?
Comment by Murgatroyd314 at 06/03/2021 at 01:48 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is something we went back and forth on, and we should have been more clear about our reasoning in the post. We chose the word "Hiding" because if a user has switched the toggle to disable this feature they're still technically online even though it would not be viewable to anyone else. We didn't want there to be any confusion in the broader sense of the term.
How about if you don’t call it anything at all, and simply don’t display any sort of indicator for the users who have declined to participate in this tracking?