https://www.reddit.com/r/bropill/comments/1hoy3pe/am_i_losing_my_mind/
created by MirrorMaster33 on 29/12/2024 at 15:20 UTC*
94 upvotes, 29 top-level comments (showing 25)
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but I need to get this off my chest as I'm not been able to find any place to express it. Sorry if I'm violating any rules
Everyday I read (mostly on social media) pointed criticisms of 'male loneliness' which feel valid to me. But it also hurts me a lot. It breaks my heart hearing/reading what women think of men due to what they have to go through daily. It is genuinely fucked up how much crap women have to go through in every little aspects of their lives due to patriarchy & toxic masculinity, so it is no wonder that they lose respect and empathy for 'men' as a whole (not individuals in their lives particularly). This is hurting men in the end and I'm losing my mind because how people can't or don't want to understand this, forget take it seriously. So many just respond with doubling down on sexism and misogyny which makes it all even worse. This is leading to dehumanizing of men and I feel distressed and helpless. Am I missing something or overreacting? Has anyone felt this way? Are there any books/works addressing this that are written/made by men for men? I'm desperately looking for something to help me process this in a healthy way.
Edit: Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful replies. So many of them! and there are some really good pieces of advice and resources all of you have shared! Grateful for all of them, makes me feels less lonely. I will take time to go through them and will try to reply as much as I can. May not be possible to reply everyone but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate your words. I'm now thinking that a part (maybe a large part) of my reaction is coming from my shame based core. I will bring this up with my therapist and work on it with her. And I think it is high time I started reading John Bradshaw, it has been on my list for a long time but didn't get time to take it up. Will also work on reducing time spent on social media (mostly twitter), its hard because it has been helpful in finding community, belonging and opportunities but I think the toxic side that comes with it is affecting me a lot too. Once again grateful for all of your kindness. I realize intellectually that my guilt/shame or whatever it is will not help the situation, it will only make it about myself which is not the outcome I desire either. But I'm facing difficulty in feeling that emotionally and I think focusing on healing myself first will lead me on that path.
Comment by ThereWasAnEmpireHere at 29/12/2024 at 23:56 UTC
166 upvotes, 6 direct replies
I want to just leave a comment saying you don’t need to read comments online. If you grew up in a room full of people saying vile stuff to you, you’d expect to be fucked up. The same phenomenon plays out online.
You are not obligated to read anyone’s take or partake in any conversation. If you know that engaging with a topic is painful for you, you are allowed to reserve that engagement for special occasions.
Don’t lose peace in your life over anyone online, we’re not worth that much.
Comment by skimaskdreamz at 30/12/2024 at 00:53 UTC
25 upvotes, 2 direct replies
stop reading stuff online and engage with men and women in real life. you will notice there is far more nuance and love in the real world. social media projects the most extreme experiences and opinions. i say this as a woman who has of course experienced misogyny and mistreatment but does go outside and have men in my social circle and a wonderful boyfriend.
i had to have this same realization (from the other side) as my feed was constantly pushing really misogynistic men and also hopeless stories of misogyny because I would doom-read the comments. I also intermittently delete all social media and tend to keep tiktok, instagram, threads, and twitter deleted 90% of the time to avoid the negativity.
Comment by jacijl at 30/12/2024 at 02:28 UTC
14 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You’re not alone. 💜
You are seeing this aspect of the situation exactly how it’s playing out. “Hurt people, hurt people” isn’t just a pithy saying. It’s a very common human response, to be dismissive of others’ needs or viewpoints, when our own are going unmet. Feeling neglected, hated, and/or villainized pushes many men farther into the void, and validates the feelings of oppression, repression, and loneliness they’re already struggling with. Many lash out, as a result. Just how many women get into very black & white thinking about men, when they’ve had bad experiences.
It’s a really hard cycle to avoid, but the fact that you’re aware of it, and wish it was different, speaks volumes.
The best thing many of us can do is to try to stay aware, be self-skeptical (to a *healthy* degree), and try to improve the area around us, as best we can.
You’re doing good! I’m sorry this is what you’re dealing with. It’s incredibly brave to see this setup, and still want to keep working and moving toward good things. 👍
Comment by aeorimithros at 30/12/2024 at 09:43 UTC*
28 upvotes, 2 direct replies
The healthiest place to process this is in therapy as an outside perspective is vital since many of the these things cause cognitive dissonance
(Not written by a man but directly addresses men)
This seminal work offers a compassionate critique of toxic masculinity, showing men how to embrace love and vulnerability..
Examines the societal and psychological pressures on boys, exploring how modern culture stifles their emotional and intellectual development.
A psychological exploration of healthy masculinity through archetypes, offering a framework for men to find purpose and balance.
Focuses on the challenges men and boys face today, while promoting a modern vision of masculinity that is fair and functional.
Encourages men to embrace vulnerability as a strength rather than a weakness.
Explores how men’s emotional repression leads to depression and offers strategies to foster emotional health.
Discusses the cultural pressures boys face and how parents and society can nurture emotional intelligence in boys.
Explores how societal norms impact boys’ emotional development and how adults can guide them away from toxic masculinity.
Helps men remove the "masks" of traditional masculinity to live more fulfilled lives.
A candid look at how men are shaped by toxic masculinity and practical advice on rejecting harmful norms.
A Jungian perspective on masculinity that explores how men can achieve psychological wholeness.
Focuses on men’s roles in challenging and dismantling the systems of violence against women.
Reflects on how patriarchy harms men and how they can join efforts to create equality and justice.
A thought-provoking and humorous critique of traditional masculinity by a celebrated artist and social commentator.
A letter from father to son about identity, race, and what it means to be a man in America.
(Edited for formatting)
Comment by Imaginat01n at 30/12/2024 at 00:56 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I feel like I could've written this. I'm sorry, I really don't have any solid answers to this.
Comment by occultbookstores at 30/12/2024 at 06:56 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I've had similar thoughts. However, I realized that, at the moment, the best thing I can do is step back and fix myself. I'm not in a position to help anyone right now, but I can try to avoid being part of the problem.
Comment by twodickhenry at 30/12/2024 at 03:31 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Isolation and loneliness are on the rise for the entire population. Needlessly centering men is going to garner backlash.
Buuut that’s not to say a lot of the response is obviously hateful. I get your conflicting feelings here. Some of the vitriol is perhaps understandable (more men weaponizing an emotional burden and placing both blame and responsibility for that burden on women), but a lot of it is clearly vindictive rather than vindicated. And honestly, ‘understandable’ or not, hurtful words are still hurtful.
My best suggestion is to start building community with your friends. Not in a grandiose manner, but literally log off and go hang out with people you know and love in real life. I promise things will feel better. Bitter people online will stay online, because otherwise they can’t be the way they are. And that’s a genderless condition.
Comment by GlencoraPalliser at 30/12/2024 at 05:39 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I am a woman so I can't quite answer your question, but I am a white person so this is what I do about racism and conversations about racism. Firstly I am open to the topic, that is I try to listen, learn and understand. Then I try to be introspective: how do I contribute to racism and how can I change? How can I support in a way that is actually supportive? And lastly, I acknowledge it as a huge problem and that it needs to be out in the open, that I need my conscience provoked by it.
Comment by thetburg at 30/12/2024 at 05:41 UTC
12 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You can't control the big picture homie. You *can* be an example for other men to follow. That includes calling or shitty behaviour from your bros if it happens. Build your community and be happy within it.
Comment by incredulitor at 30/12/2024 at 05:12 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Working backwards through your post, because I want to give you all the credit for ending with asking for something specific to do with all of this:
Dunk your hands or face in some ice water.
https://www.kindmindpsych.com/using-the-divers-reflex-to-regulate-emotional-intensity/
You have a right to feel as upset as you do, or more if it helps you get what you want. I'm betting though that when you talk about feeling "distressed and helpless", moving from a 10/10 intensity of feeling to 8/10, or 8/10 to 6/10, is probably going to help more than sitting in it at the current level of intensity. If that's true, then commit to doing something about it, then read on.
Psychology In Seattle is the first resource that comes to mind. It's run by a man who's a therapist, professor and host to a bunch of his own friends, more than half of the ones who appear on the show being men, often talking about mens' issues with friendships and relationships. His patreon episodes ($5, not affiliated, just subscribed to it myself for a while) for deep dives on issues like attachment security and emotional neglect are a pretty unique resource, but on the direct topics you're asking for, here are a handful of episodes:
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/loneliness-experience--42753016
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/masculinity-and-pod-plans--54555559
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/friend-sex-incels-and-killers-of-the-flower-moon--57782451
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hby8KxD1JIQ
I don't know of any books addressing the specific phenomenon of hurt men and hurt women clashing for airtime on the Internet. As those episodes talk about, there are a lot of factors that feed into it. Not least of all what /u/ThereWasAnEmpireHere is talking about with the group of people who are online at any given time probably overrepresenting those who are rude, possibly traumatized, abused and/or abusive themselves, and with an axe to grind. Other factors might be well-covered by books on sociology like *Bowling Alone* (have not read it, need to, believe in the general point about loss of third spaces being a serious issue).
Observations from my own life and people who are posting about this:
When you're in or fresh out of high school, maybe early career or career not even really started, education unfinished, few other kind of traditional markers of identity, success or achievement to your name and you're trying to make sense of the world, a natural starting place is to treat all input more or less equally. That would work well if maybe 80-95% of the people that you would randomly stumble into in an online conversation were themselves experienced in the world, with a stable identity, level-headed, and genuinely interested in and open to your differing experience.
In practice, the intersection of all of those circles is extremely, extremely rare. This is part of why people make a big deal of media literacy, but it calls for at least as much discernment in individual interactions. You need to have at least some people around you (IRL or virtual) that make you feel good at least some of the time. That's kind of what this sub is for, and I hope you get it out of some genuine engagement here. Ideally, over time, you'd be doing enough that's good for yourself and good for other people on your own that those comments would eventually sink in and you'd start to feel some buffer where a nasty comment (deserved or not) doesn't feel like a potentially terminal threat to your self worth. That's not going to *stop* some woman online from telling you that you don't deserve to be talking about your own hurt, but that's the point: *nothing* is going to stop someone who wants to say that. That person is *guaranteed* to be out there, *right now*. That doesn't make their opinion the objective reality of the situation stretching outward infinitely in time and space.
What might feel infinite is the frustration you'll have to face on the way to making up your mind to do something else, for yourself, that doesn't involve changing the views of this other person. If you're fixated on them (or someone like them) being wrong and being hurtful towards you, you will lose this battle. Every time. That doesn't make you a worthless person but it does suggest maybe weighing other alternative things to read. You could also ask yourself some deeper questions about who earlier in your life you wished you won some argument with or convinced to care about you in a way they were never going to that this kind of interaction would scratch the same itch for. It fucking sucks not to be able to convince people who are themselves convinced they're morally in the right place to be nicer to you, but if you've tried multiple times and it's not happening, I'm hoping you can give yourself the permission to at least take a break, and maybe find a different perspective on it.
Good luck.
Comment by Fant92 at 30/12/2024 at 08:54 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Following for the book recommendations.
Because I feel the same. I see through my wife the things she has to deal with and it's disheartening. Both men and women are going through a very hard time right now where they're manipulated like never before by people who profit (in money or power) off driving a wedge between genders. This should be a time where we embrace the removal of a gender gap and let everyone find their own beautiful mix of masculinity and femininity, but instead it often seems to be growing bigger.
Instead of talking to each other, people blame each other for the issues often created by greedy corporations (Tinder deliberately frustrating lonely men to shake quarters from their pockets) or the ruling class (upholding, y'know, the general patriarchy). This is exactly what "they" want but it's saddening to see how well it's working.
Men are dehumanizing women to find an (easy) answer for their loneliness and women are dehumanizing men because they just see shitty men everywhere (and there áre shitty men everywhere). I was so sad when that "your body, my choice" tweet went out and started this wave of very understandable misandry. I truly get it, but it's just so horrible to see how one horrendous person with a platform can do so much damage to an entire gender's image and there's so little us "little men" can do about it.
The world is pretty fucked right now and I just try to focus on the things I can actually influence. That means being nice to the people I interact with, regardless of gender, and trying to improve myself. It won't even come close to offsetting the damage of just a single Nick Fuentes tweet, but it's better than nothing.
Sorry for rambling.
Comment by Mimicry2311 at 30/12/2024 at 11:11 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
To keep your sanity, remember this: Social media is not the real world. It rewards extremism and doesn't represent what people in the real world actually think. Most women I talk to in the real world are well aware of the duality of men: the struggles men face and the hazard that some men represent. No group of people is a monolith. All of them, including the one called "men" are a diverse set of individuals.
What helped me a lot is to stay clear of most of social media and highly curate what you consume. There is zero point in letting angry people on the internet detached from reality drag you down. Zero.
Instead: talk to real people in the real world to re-calibrate your perspective a bit. It helps a lot since extreme opinions are much rarer (though they do exist).
And remember: it's never okay nor helpful to respond with hate. If you see someone doing that – not matter what "side" they are on – walk away.
If you want to take action: start by being a positive role model and try to foster mutual understanding wherever you can.
Comment by GladysSchwartz23 at 30/12/2024 at 00:24 UTC
13 upvotes, 0 direct replies
OP: thank you for being a decent bro who gets it.
Comment by FionnVEVO at 29/12/2024 at 23:48 UTC
7 upvotes, 2 direct replies
This sounds like male guilt. Here is a a thread about it.
Comment by processing_stress at 30/12/2024 at 03:57 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Social media is skewing your (and other people's) perception of things. Realize that social media engines profit heavily off of showing you content you will engage with (negative/controversial takes is usually what IG/TT go for).
I would recommend reducing your social media time (or learning how to be more careful about the social media you consume), and figure out for yourself what you want and like. In particular, don't let anyone else on social media tell you what a man is or should do - that's a reflection of a person's opinions and not a requirement to define masculinity. Instead, put your focus on learning how to build and maintain healthy wholesome inperson social relationships, actively seek life experiences and figure out what you like and who you want to be.
I might be able to find some books if you need, but I would honestly recommend therapy instead - you might be able to come up with good solutions on your own, but having a trained someone else to iterate thoughts with is much more efficient time-wise
Comment by OfficialSandwichMan at 30/12/2024 at 01:36 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Yeah, it sucks. Here’s what you can do about it.
Be the best man you can be. Always be finding ways to better yourself. Watch out for the behaviors women criticize and (assuming you yourself aren’t doing any of them) when you see other men doing those things call them out publicly about it. Show everyone you have your honor about you.
It sucks to have our needs and wants dismissed because of the actions of other men. It also sucks that women have to be (rightfully) cautious around every man, particularly strange men, also because of the actions of other men.
Be the best version of yourself you can be, every step of the way.
Comment by Rockthejokeboat at 30/12/2024 at 09:51 UTC
12 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Most women have not lost empathy for men as a whole. That is a really scewed worldview.
People also tend to overstate things online, especially when they’re in echochambers.
My advice is to stop reading stuff like that because it’s not doing you any good.
Comment by EssenceOfLlama81 at 30/12/2024 at 05:39 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
It's worth noting that people are often hyperbolic online and exaggerate. I'm not in anyway saying that women don't face a lot of hardship, but please don't take online comments as truth. These are often people venting.
The best thing you can do is focus on being aware of your own biases, encourage positive behavior in the men in your life (especially young men who are still figuring things out), and most of all understand that this is a systematic problem that is not your fault.
You cannot change the world by yourself and you're only responsible for what you bring into this world. Men feeling guilty won't make things better, but a lot of men and women making small changes and improvements over time will. Do your best to make positive change. Ignore the people that are preventing change, both those who reinforce bad, misogynistic ideas and those who use the bad behavior of some men to paint all men as evil.
When you something you read makes you angry or frustrated, ask yourself if the people who wrote it are trying to create positive change and engage accordingly.
Comment by dgreensp at 30/12/2024 at 01:41 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The quality of any POVs about "society" on X, Facebook, Instagram, etc is exceedingly low. What do you want a book about, specifically? I think it's best for everyone to mostly focus on their own personal growth, friendships, relationships, mental health, etc., and know some history, but there is only so much that can be said about "men vs women in 2024" and you've probably heard it all.
Comment by InfamousCantaloupe38 at 31/12/2024 at 03:14 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Couldn't agree more with the folks saying it's from the internet, or more specifically spending too much time in spaces that over-focus on what you mention.
I spend time in maker's spaces, online or offline... special interest groups share a common goal they're learning about by doing or making something productive together, writing, researching, creating, whatever. In those (typically mixed-gender) spaces, I almost *never* hear what you mention. But in those groups, the goal is not to complain and pick apart things... it's to do something beneficial.
If a platform's goal is to let people post constantly about things that they like or don't like, or can complain about... then an overwhelming amount of outrage and complaining occurs. Social media has largely been twisted into a cancer on society. Negative stuff sells more ads, so algorithms feature it to sell more ads. Same for a lot of media now.
Comment by ImReallySeriousMan at 30/12/2024 at 09:00 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
No, you're right. A lot of men are not doing that well, but a lot of women are also having problems.
The common denominator is that a lot of it comes from male behavior.
We are ruining it for ourselves.
I'm not saying that you and I specifically are doing it, but if we are not working actively against toxic masculinity, we are permitting it.
If you're not already engaged in feminism, I would suggest you read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez.
By supporting that fight, we are also improving the chance that men and women can see eye to eye. Besides being a decent human being it also helps us directly to fight for equality.
Comment by FrugalFlannels at 30/12/2024 at 06:09 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
People’s suffering is real, but often they are persuaded to put blame in the wrong places. You’re on the right path. Keep being a good influence on the world, every bit helps. No individual snowflake thinks they are responsible for the avalanche.
Comment by thatpotatogirl9 at 30/12/2024 at 15:59 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Hey my friend, woman here. If you aren't participating in the vitriol towards or mistreatment of women, you have nothing to feel guilty for. I'm autistic and struggle with a very strong sense of justice so when I feel a group has been wronged I rage even if I can't do anything about it. I feel your frustration and sadness. It sucks to feel helpless in a struggle that has been going on for millennia.
But just know that as long as you are doing the best you can without harming yourself, you're absolutely doing good enough. You are not responsible for the actions of men who hate women or just see us as less. You are not responsible for the loneliness epidemic. You are only responsible for you and your actions. And I suspect your actions are pretty damn good ones based on the care that you've expressed here.
Something that may help you feel a little better about it all is that the loneliness epidemic is not limited to men and has many causes completely independent of the actions some men take. It's definitely not a simple matter of some men being so toxic they're causing isolation for all men. This article[1] breaks it down pretty well and explains how the epidemic is affecting people and who it is affecting. Yes, there are additional gender issues outside of the loneliness epidemic that are affecting dating specifically, but your loneliness is valid and shared by many other people including women. You're not alone in this.
A lot of the guys on this sub had great advice on avoiding the toxic discourse and I could not agree more. A lot of shitty dudes try and claim it's not an issue for women and that it's the fault of women and then women lash back out with criticisms of certain behaviors and views that are commonly perpetuated by toxic men without thinking about the people caught in the cross hairs. It sucks and I'm sorry it's affecting you. You don't deserve that and you don't have to keep consuming the anger and vitriol.
You're allowed to protect your peace.
Comment by AutoModerator at 29/12/2024 at 15:20 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Attention to all members: vents belong in the weekly vibe check thread, and relationship-related questions belong the relationships thread. Vent threads will be removed. This is an automated reminder sent to all who submit a thread and it does not mean your thread was removed.
1: /message/compose/?to=/r/bropill
Comment by Wise-Caterpillar-910 at 31/12/2024 at 00:20 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The most malformed broken squeaky wheel on the grocery cart is always the loudest. Hurt people aren't known for being the best at evaluating truth.
A large component of emotionally healthy people are not raging in the comment section. They are out enjoying their day and other people.
You should actively try to discount extremist voices because extremism doesn't properly reflect reality.
You have to add your own selection bias while using evidence to adjust your beliefs.