-644 upvotes, 84 direct replies (showing 25)
t looks like I banned you in January (?) for posting a number to a car shop in order to get people to call them and express their dissatisfaction with their treatment of a pizza guy and that they wouldn’t be getting their business.
Yes, it was a public company's number, but I was worried that your comment was going to cause a bunch of people from the internet to go harass the company. Even if you think it's justified, I was not okay with allowing that to happen. My actual words to you were "Why do you think it's okay to encourage people to harass anyone based on something you saw about them on the internet?" I suppose that came off very snarky and unprofessional. For that, I apologize.
I don't know if it was the right decision, but I thought it was the best course of action at the time. I see we spoke briefly, and I never got back to you after you messaged back two more times. Nobody should be ignored like that, and we are generally very liberal about giving second, even third chances after an initial ban if you come to us to talk about it. We believe that people are corruptible, but we also believe that they are mostly rehabilitatable and want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
That said, the situation you’re in now is entirely my fault. This was around the time I was in the process of moving (or had just moved) across the country to keep this job due to the forced relocation (without my husband, might I add), and I was still the only community manager keeping tabs on modmail and other things during the US daytime. I was very busy and emotional from being torn from my family. I apologize it happened like that and I get that this just another excuse, but that’s right where my head was at during that time.
I can transfer whatever gold you had from that account to this account, or perhaps even reinstate the old account if you want it back and promise to continue to abide by the rules.
Comment by BellyFullOfSwans at 06/07/2015 at 21:43 UTC
632 upvotes, 7 direct replies
I promise you that no kind word or apology is EVER lost on me. Trivial or not, my account did mean a lot to me and I did put a lot of time into "the better side of Reddit" (passionate debate, buying gold, participating in events and Redditgifts...etc). I truly wasnt a troll, although I did get angry after the matter and not shut up about it (to this day).
The context you describe for my "banned quote" was correct, but it was the phone number within a thread about retribution. My addition of the number was truly a plea for tolerant resolution (if you have a problem, dont send them glitter...call them and let them know). My intention was a calmer and well thought out response to a business who was in the wrong. I HONESTLY believed that "personal numbers" pertained to individuals and not businesses.
That is my side of the story and I TRULY appreciate yours. I dont require my gold back, but I do want you to know that your response is better than getting gold back. From my lone perspective, I have been stewing about this for about 4 months now.
Im no angel, but I encourage you to go through my present account or /u/gekokujo to verify that they are my only accounts and that they were used for passionate and profane debate, but never for trolling/doxxing/hate.
I would like to thank you again for your apology, and any consideration of reinstating /r/gekokujo (if nothing else, so that I could participate in Reddit Gift exchanges again).
Comment by X-More_Man at 06/07/2015 at 23:18 UTC
98 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I've had several accounts, some for different purposes. I've submitted a video to /r/MonsterHunter that got pretty popular, I debate occasionally, make jokes, argue, laugh. I vote up and down based almost entirely on my emotions. I've voted you down in this very thread when I didn't think you were being genuine. All things considered, **I'm a pretty typical user.**
I've followed this whole debacle closely, rolling through user pages to find comments. I like reddit. It consumes a large portion of my day. I do not like what reddit has become and I do not like what's happening. **I have read accounts of a guy who was shadowbanned for years and didn't even know.** He spent years posting content and trying to talk to people, adding to conversation, all the while thinking no one was talking back. He spent years being invisible.
Why? I'm sure you think it's silly, but **I have no idea what gets people shadowbanned.** And those people often have no idea its even happened. The rules and implementation are vague and seemingly random. Am I going to get shadowbanned for downvoting one of your posts? Can I get banned for downvoting all of /u/kn0thing's posts, back when he was going on about his popcorn? I got to all of them from his user page. Is that wrong? **What IS wrong** and how can I know?
I don't feel safe anymore, /u/krispykrackers. At any moment and for any reason, **someone could pull a trigger and devour my account into isolation and silence** for seemingly any reason. Silence that could last for years. Should I vote differently? Should I post differently? Am I doing wrong? You've kept people banned when you were just being overly-emotional, as you've stated in this case. Some people don't even get the courtesy of a message. Most people don't, it seems like. I can't do anything to alleviate this fear, because the application of shadowbans are too inconsistent. There are no rules that define it; it just happens. I can't change to avoid it. Silence could come at any time.
Was my comment to /u/Sporkicide too much? Did I downvote /u/ekjp too many times? Has my voting in /r/Blackout2015 put me on some kind of list? Am I going to trigger some robot, who can banish me without even a cognitive thought about it? **How would I even know if I was doing something wrong?** Would I even know it had happened?
Comment by [deleted] at 07/07/2015 at 04:18 UTC*
22 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Hey, Since we are on the topic of Shadowbans and you have never once responded to one of my PMs regarding this issue so I guess I will have to air this out for all of reddit to see:
Why did you shadowban /u/lilstumpz for posting a certain moderators information in a private modmail message (That that moderator posted publicly on reddit himself).
How is it our fault that we are trying to get rid of a squatter, and you don't want to play ball? We have been contacting you about this for over a year now and you still do nothing. Your rule for removing a moderator is that they can't have been active in the last 3 months. How is logging in, being active? The rule should be changed to " Active on the subreddit in the last 3 months". You are going to punish us for trying to do YOUR job?
I digress, How is reposting someones information , that they already willingly posted themselves, a dox? Do you even understand what doxxing is? Its not even like it was posted in public.
Thanks to your unwillingness to help out the people who keep you employed, we almost lost /r/MorbidReality. You were even unwilling to help us w/ that. You allowed for a top moderator to be removed, and for the second moderator to remove every other mod because you wanted to "Stay out of it". Isn't that your job?
I am sure at this point /u/lilstumpz no longer cares about his karma or that account, and we were miraculously able to get back /r/MorbidReality without you or the other administrators help. I am just writing this so that everyone who will read this will know how unhelpful an admin you have been in the past and to shed some light on what the future of reddit will look like with you in as the new "Moderator Advocate" I have moderated 2 high subscriber subs for over 2 years now and you have never advocated for us **once.**
Comment by eel_knight at 06/07/2015 at 21:38 UTC*
45 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I don't know if it was the right decision
As someone who is ostensibly an expert in these matters at reddit, and who has just been promoted or assigned the duty to oversee more issues like this, how is this possible?
If it's really the case where this situation is in a gray area, shouldn't the rules be more clear?
e: Just found this quote from the official posting rules: "We allow organized campaigns to reach appropriate points of contact, but not individual employees who have nothing to do with the issues."
It appears that this is black and white, and that the ban was unwarranted, if I am reading this correctly there aren't any other details we're all missing.
In which case, you did not make the right decision, and that should be obvious to you as someone whose job it is to enforce said rules.
Comment by kodiakinc at 06/07/2015 at 21:20 UTC*
301 upvotes, 5 direct replies
So let me get this straight:
1. Massively over-reacting to the initial post. You were "worried" so rather than delete the comment, along with adding a temp ban until your worries were addressed, you ban him permanently.
2. You ignored the user trying to resolve the situation.
3. You float a bullshit excuse: It happened because you were having a bit of a rough patch at the time.
Boo fucking hoo. Leave your personal drama at the door. Didn't they ever teach you that at your first job? Or maybe, just maybe take a step back and make admin decisions with a clear head. You obviously have issues handling your responsibilities, and from the looks of things over the last few days that seems to be an institutional issue with Reddit Admins in general.
Some may say at least you addressed it in a forthright manner. I say it's shitty it takes this kind of shitstorm before we get issues addressed. Now you've essentially admitted incompetence, and yet YOU are the one to be Mod Advocate, adding responsibilities to someone who just stated they couldn't effectively deal with what's already on their plate? Yeah, this leaves me just a wee bit cynical.
Comment by rafits at 06/07/2015 at 22:22 UTC
31 upvotes, 0 direct replies
People are corruptible? People are "mostly" rehabilitatable? Unless you have a doctorate in psychology or you are actively batman dude fuck off with that bullshit. Please don't ban me for my genuine response to that statement. It's that kind of thinking that will always point out who should be nowhere near power. Power tripping is killing Reddit. We're just people. People posting pictures of cats. Occasionally fucking up and violating a rule, bc you know it's not our job to log on here and kill time. When we mess up moderators are supposed to be there to let us know we fucked up. I was shadow banned for two years without knowing I thought I was only banned from one subreddit but no, I violated a rule once and gone. Three of four passive aggressive responses from a mod later and my first time offense was forgiven--2 years later. Reddit needs a report system for mods that actually holds them accountable for what they say and do. Only then will the community improve.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/07/2015 at 02:10 UTC
62 upvotes, 2 direct replies
This was around the time I was in the process of moving (or had just moved) across the country to keep this job due to the forced relocation (without my husband, might I add), and I was still the only community manager keeping tabs on modmail and other things during the US daytime.
Someone once told me "no one else really cares about your personal drama." They had a point, in a way. When you have a customer service interaction with someone, you don't really care if the clerk is having a bad day. You just want to complete your transaction or get your problem solved.
Now if you weren't being paid for doing this -- that makes it different, in my eyes, because I don't expect anyone to adhere to professionalism in something if they aren't being paid for it. But if you were, then no one cares about your personal drama in the context of accomplishing work.
Comment by redditgolddigg3r at 06/07/2015 at 21:12 UTC*
179 upvotes, 5 direct replies
We believe that people are corruptible, but we also believe that they are mostly rehabilitatable and want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Who do you think you are? God, you sound like a self-righteous piece of work here. He made a mistake. He didn't kill a puppy.
A tip going forward. Nobody cares about your two paragraphs of excuses. Just reinstate his account, refund his money, apologize, and move forward. We all have personal issues, problems, and life challenges. Your excuses are just that, excuses.
God, it seems like everyone on this team is begging for some proper interpersonal communication training. Some of the most clueless people I've ever seen.
Comment by sevenseal7 at 06/07/2015 at 21:15 UTC
58 upvotes, 1 direct replies
to keep this job due to the forced relocation
It could be worse, you could have been forced to relocate and then been fired, right?
At the rate people are being let go, how confident are you that these changes can be implemented? I mean, if it can happen to Victoria of all people it could easily happen to you or other admins. I see u/Deimorz getting name-dropped as being one of the programmers implementing these changes, but IIRC isn't he still in Canada? How long until he's "let go" with no warning?
Comment by QuineQuest at 07/07/2015 at 00:40 UTC*
25 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Can you explain to me why shadowbans aren't in direct violation with your stated values[1], specifically
1: https://www.reddit.com/about/values/
Default to transparency, and when you can’t be transparent, be honest.
Shadowbans certainly aren't transparent, and they aren't honest, either.
They also make it very hard to appeal a ban when you don't even know it happened.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 21:10 UTC
106 upvotes, 1 direct replies
but I was worried that your comment was going to cause a bunch of people from the internet to go harass the company.
You were worried his comment was going to cause a bunch of people from the internet to go harass the company so you don't just delete his comment, you ban him too?
perhaps even reinstate the old account if you want it back and promise to continue to abide by the rules.
According to Ellen Pao, he didn't break any rules:
Here's our definition of harassment: Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person (1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation, or (2) fear for their safety or the safety of those around them. **We allow organized campaigns to reach appropriate points of contact, but not individual employees who have nothing to do with the issues.**
Perhaps you should apologize to him and re-instate his account instead of trying to weasel him into taking accountability over your mistake.
Comment by jamin_brook at 06/07/2015 at 23:39 UTC
27 upvotes, 0 direct replies
That might possibly be the worst apology I've ever read. It basically says, "I fucked up but you know I was stressed and it's kinda your fault for doing something I didn't like anyway, would you like your internet points back?"
My behavior **was** ~~I suppose that came off as snarky and~~ unprofessional **and herefore unacceptable.** For that I apologize.
FTFY
That said, the situation you’re in now is entirely my fault. ~~This was around the time I was in the process of moving (or had just moved) across the country to keep this job due to the forced relocation (without my husband, might I add), and I was still the only community manager keeping tabs on modmail and other things during the US daytime. I was very busy and emotional from being torn from my family.~~ I apologize it happened. ~~like that and I get that this just another excuse, but that’s right where my head was at during that time.~~
FTFY
Comment by please_downvote_ at 06/07/2015 at 21:33 UTC
95 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Why wouldn't you just delete the comment and offer am explanation as to why? To me, THAT seems like the necessary course of action. Practically swiping an entire account's accessibility is going way overboard, and seems kinda like a power trip.
Comment by Im1ToThe337 at 06/07/2015 at 23:29 UTC
23 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Nonstop excuses. What a joke. "I was emotional, and I just moved, and I didn't have my husband with me, and did I mention I didn't want to move, but it was actually a forced relocation? Also, I completely ignored you after you messaged me multiple times."
What an impressive and professional business.
How many times do you think someone called an ACTUAL company, with any self respect, with a problem and got an emotional customer representative who was rude and unhelpful? Do you think their supervisor would go "OH, that's just Jerry, he's moving, you know how stressful that is, right? We'll just allow him to fuck over customers until he feels a bit better. :)"
Never. That shit doesn't happen. The way you're representing your company is laughable.
Comment by brasiwsu at 06/07/2015 at 22:04 UTC
15 upvotes, 1 direct replies
So to clarify, it is okay to post a business phone number, as long as it's not an attempt to brigade then IRL?
Personal phone numbers obviously off limits no matter the circumstances.
What about numbers for a representative in an attempt to get a flood of people to call and express disapproval on a voting issue?
Comment by wannabe_brazilian at 06/07/2015 at 21:44 UTC
35 upvotes, 3 direct replies
We believe that people are corruptible, but we also believe that they are mostly rehabilitatable
Isn't this somewhat... generalizing?
Comment by cutofyourgibberish at 06/07/2015 at 21:07 UTC
167 upvotes, 3 direct replies
Guy did nothing wrong and you still feel the need to make him "promise to continue to the abide by the rules"? This is the sort of reaction I expect from a day-care worker giving back a toy, not someone who one paragraph above is saying the situation is their fault.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 21:58 UTC
87 upvotes, 3 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by Murzac at 06/07/2015 at 21:11 UTC
136 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I would imagine that deleting the comment and giving a warning would have been good enough for that case.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 21:17 UTC
1311 upvotes, 5 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by Atari_Historian at 06/07/2015 at 21:10 UTC
40 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I can transfer whatever gold you had from that account to this account, or perhaps even reinstate the old account if you want it back and promise to continue to abide by the rules.
Will you be making a similar promise?
Comment by catdeuce at 06/07/2015 at 21:06 UTC
2147 upvotes, 12 direct replies
So what's to stop you from shadowbanning someone the next time you're upset about something in your personal life?
Comment by JoinTheRightClick at 06/07/2015 at 22:12 UTC
10 upvotes, 0 direct replies
That still doesn't explain why you stopped communicating with him after your initial explanation. Is it because you didn't feel obliged to spend a few extra minutes to explain to him back then like how you explained now? Were you too busy?
Comment by F54280 at 06/07/2015 at 21:41 UTC
37 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I don't know if it was the right decision
Are you fucking kidding us? This was not the right decision, and you still don't understand that.
You are now going to be placed in a position of even greater power, and you don't get basic things. That is just amazingly awful
promise to continue to abide by the rules.
What is that bullshit? He did not break any rule. Do you also want hm to write a 500 words essay?
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 22:13 UTC
17 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Why shadowban at all? I think a reasonable person would delete the comment and send a PM to user letting them know not to post the number.
Why does it take having the issue shown to everyone before the right thing is done?