5091 upvotes, 26 direct replies (showing 25)
A few things beyond a PR statement that would restore my faith in the admins:
1. **Stop shadowbanning users** - It was a tool made for spam bots, not to silence dissent. The mere fact that a perfectly legitimate user can be shadowbanned without their knowledge is ridiculous, and it has been happening more and more in the past few months/year
2. **Stop subreddit favoritism** - You want to have anti-harassment rules? Great. Enforce them in every. sub. equally. Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links. Why does SRS get away with being able to post direct links with obvious brigading?
Also, /u/ekjp, as much as I would like to think that things are business as usual with you as CEO, you have made some very questionable statements regarding free speech[1] and sexism in tech[2] from a position that is seemingly vacant in logic. The fact that you feel you must talk to major news sites before actually acknowledging your userbase is troubling to say the least. You have done nothing to earn my trust or support, and in fact have done several things to reinforce the opposite. So... prove me wrong?
2: http://fortune.com/2015/04/06/ellen-pao-post-trial-interviews/
Edit: Yes I am now aware that my knowledge of np links was wrong. Thank you for informing me everyone. Not going to edit the post as the point still stands. Enforce rules across subs equally.
Comment by Mumberthrax at 06/07/2015 at 18:06 UTC*
1467 upvotes, 16 direct replies
Stop shadowbanning users
Stop subreddit favoritism - You want to have anti-harassment rules? Great. Enforce them in every. sub. equally. Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links. Why does SRS get away with being able to post direct links with obvious brigading?
np links are not a reddit thing, they're a derpy css hack and the admins have stated (well at least some of them) that they don't support them. they've said they're working on anti-brigading tools, but I don't know more than that.
Comment by makemisteaks at 06/07/2015 at 18:51 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is something that to me signals the slow descent Reddit has been going on in the past months. We are no longer a community that defends a free and open internet for all.
You ban people that might not even realize it, with no possibility of recourse or community oversight. You do it because of questionable reasons and ulterior motives.
You basically proved what we always say will happen every time someone builds tools to censor what we read online: Whatever good intentions they were build on, they will eventually be used to stifle and control.
Alexis has said before that they are changing how shadowbans are applied, but he did not go into any detail. You have, I believe, hoped that we would just let the issue die given enough time.
So, u/ekjp, what can you tell us about your plans for that?
Comment by AntonioOfVenice at 06/07/2015 at 18:03 UTC*
2291 upvotes, 10 direct replies
Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links.
Even though it's not a meta-reddit sub, /r/KotakuInAction doesn't even use np-links - we have to use archives, or we'd be accused of "brigading" and banned. And yet SRS is permitted to openly brigade every other sub on Reddit. Not to mention the fact that SRS is openly dedicated to destroy Reddit. Why does that not fall under 'breaking Reddit'?
Comment by 016Bramble at 06/07/2015 at 18:20 UTC
1020 upvotes, 11 direct replies
How about /r/bestof? They brigade too, but it's usually an upvote brigade. Should that be allowed? (genuine question)
Comment by JackalKing at 06/07/2015 at 18:14 UTC
524 upvotes, 5 direct replies
Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links.
KiA was told they aren't even allowed to us np links. Links inside reddit are automatically deleted by a bot now to be on the safe side because they know that the admins are looking for any reason they can to delete that sub.
Meanwhile, SRS still continues to brigade, and have been brigading for years now.
Comment by Sporkicide at 06/07/2015 at 19:26 UTC
141 upvotes, 16 direct replies
1. The ban system needs work. You're right, it was intended to be used against spammers and instead it's used for everything. We'd much rather have a system that makes sense to users and makes it clear "this is what you did wrong" as opposed to the current "maybe someday you'll figure it out and message us" system. I don't know that it's been happening more often but discussion and annoyance with the system has definitely increased.
2. The admins have never enforced/endorsed/supported NP links. They're a user-created hack. Brigading is a real problem and we know it. Before the events of this weekend, we already had some plans to address it and those are still on the table although not yet completed.
Comment by KRosen333 at 06/07/2015 at 18:49 UTC
16 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Stop subreddit favoritism - You want to have anti-harassment rules? Great. Enforce them in every. sub. equally. Other meta-reddit subs have to use np links. Why does SRS get away with being able to post direct links with obvious brigading?
Since it is direct proof of some subreddits being treated differently than others. /r/AgainstMensRights is, as far as I know, considred a "femhub" sub, which means it is closely related to /r/ShitRedditSays.
Comment by nodthenbow at 06/07/2015 at 18:25 UTC
73 upvotes, 2 direct replies
NP is just a css trick that is not enforced by the admins.
Comment by jsmooth7 at 06/07/2015 at 18:29 UTC*
10 upvotes, 0 direct replies
NP links do next to nothing to prevent brigrading. Enforcing their use would be pretty pointless honestly.
I would much rather the admins came up with a better solution (and mod tools!) to deal with brigades from elsewhere. That seems like a better use of their time.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 18:34 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I can get behind both of these. The problem with shadowbanning is that's basically the only tool they've got to whack something seen as troublesome. It's like using a nuclear weapon to kill a single mosquito. A little more nuance in the tools would be appreciated. Same for more even-handed enforcement of harassment rules.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 18:52 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I don't believe appealing to /u/ekjp on the grounds of equal treatment of ideologies will work. Here is why.
I don't know Ellen Pao of course, but I think like many powerful people who act the way she does, she believes that she's "fighting the good fight."
She thinks that her unequal treatment of certain ideas, or her favoritism of others, is payback for years of it happening in the other direction. In other words, she thinks that she is fighting inequality.
Whether she realizes that she is fighting inequality with more inequality, or that she is ignoring and infringing upon the very principles that allowed people like her to rise to positions of power in America in the first place, I do not know. But I do know that trying to argue about equality or freedom of speech with people like her will usually fall on deaf ears, because they will almost always tune you out. They are quite literally social justice *warriors*, and as long as they believe a war is going on, they are never going to listen to reason.
Comment by Mises2Peaces at 06/07/2015 at 21:52 UTC
4 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Amen. My other account was shadowbanned for reasons which I can only assume were politically motivated. I was certainly never in any violation of Reddit rules. If I had been, some notice would have been nice.
Comment by boobookittyfuck69696 at 06/07/2015 at 18:53 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The fact that you feel you must talk to major news sites before actually acknowledging your userbase is troubling to say the least.
This. So much fucking this.
Comment by scammerwatch1 at 06/07/2015 at 21:39 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Stop shadowbanning users
+1. Or at least make the process much more transparent.
Comment by IBitePrettyHard at 06/07/2015 at 18:15 UTC
58 upvotes, 2 direct replies
The shadowbanning and censorship of posts is infuriating. What is this, North Korea?
Comment by RenaKunisaki at 07/07/2015 at 04:42 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
1000 times this. Reddit's #1 problem right now isn't "someone got fired with no warning", it's the total lack of moderation transparency. Shadowbans and silent automods should be reserved for the most extreme cases, not the norm. The way it works right now feels like it's ripped directly from a conspiracy novel. Utter the wrong word and you get put on The List, getting your post - and potentially all your posts in a given sub, or in all of Reddit - silently censored the second you submit them, and having no (easy) way to know this is happening. And if you do realize your post was deleted, have fun trying to guess why.
One thing I discovered recently that particularly bothered me is that deleted threads don't show up in your saved links (but if you do find your way back to them, they're still marked Saved). So the mods of each sub have (unknown to most users) the authority to say not just "this doesn't belong on this sub" but "nobody should be allowed to see this, we'll pretend it never happened". WTF is that? Why does some random mod get to arbitrarily remove things from *my personal bookmarks*? I don't care if it's technically off topic or breaks some silly obscure rule of that particular sub, obviously I wanted to see it.
Between complete opacity, shadowbans, silent removals from both subs and personal bookmark lists, and some blatantly obvious shill posts that somehow make it to the top of popular subs every so often, it's very difficult to hold any viewpoint other than "Reddit has sold out and silently censors any content/users that threaten their ad revenue".
Reddit was "the new Digg" when Digg censored themselves to death, and it's become "the new Digg" again by censoring itself to death. You want to appease people? Start having some transparency. No more threads/posts deleted with no explanation. No more shadowbans, silent removals, silent spam filter/automod flagging except as a last resort against spambots. No more letting one person mod 100 subs. No more letting mods decide what I can and can't bookmark. And if /r/worldnews is going to keep instantly removing any article with "TPP" in its title, at least give it a more accurate name like /r/certain-world-news-articles-that-some-mods-like, rather than the current name that implies neutrality.
Hell, maybe there could even be a system where people post whatever they like and the users, collectively, mark posts as relevant/irrelevant and let the spam filter to the bottom automatically... hey wait a minute.
Comment by SpacedOutKarmanaut at 07/07/2015 at 00:22 UTC*
1 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Ah, SRS, everyones favorite boogieman even though it has less subscribes that MensRights and some of the other subreddits that constantly complain about it. I mean, no one stopped /r/Baltimore from getting brigaded by racists during the riots and people are enraged that /r/fatpeoplehate got a ton of flack *just* for spamming imgur and the reddit admins with hatemail. But yeah, sure, I bet a subreddit that calls people out on awful comments is far worse for the community than open bigotry. I mean, how can they be so mean to people just because they spew bigotry all day? Don't bigots deserve not to have mean things said about them? Where is the justice in this world???
Seriously, though. If people feel it's censorship that they can't post non-anonymous picture of fat people to shame them on reddit, why not move to another site? Why not register your own domain, non-anonymously, and post your pictures there? It just seems to me to be extremely hypocritical to cry "censorship" because people want to be able to *anonymously* shame others (who's photos get posted online for all to see....) for free in a public forum.
When you post pictures of the CEO and others all over reddit in "protest," calling them fatties, shaming people for being 'ugly' or fat, it doesn't seem like you're making a brilliant point about free spech to normal people. It seems like a bunch of stupid kids are throwing a temper tantrum because they got told to play nice. Writing fancy messages to the CEO about censorship and calling them "vacant" just sounds even more petty. They don't owe you trust. They don't owe you support. Go surf another website.
Comment by GammaKing at 06/07/2015 at 18:31 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Stop subreddit favoritism
Agreed. For far too long there's been this policy of just not acknowledging when "popular" subs break rules to avoid dealing with it. That needs to end.
If there's any good faith here, an admin should reply to you.
Comment by poliphilo at 06/07/2015 at 19:34 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Another suggestion:
How about creating a rotating committee of moderators and/or users, somewhat analogous to Wikipedia's elected Arbitration Committee[1] or Mediation Committee[2]? They could be in charge of some level of decision-making around certain kinds of policy enforcement (subreddit favoritism) and also be privy to certain kinds of admin changes.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Committee
This seems to have overall worked out pretty well for Wikipedia; for example, they successfully navigated the Deletionism controversy. The process has not, of course, been drama-free, and there may be a problem with editor attrition. But it does seem to have improved relations between the admins and the users, and redirected a part of the frustration from admins vs. users (where the former side has huge advantages in power, voice, information over the latter) to one of users vs. users (e.g. when conducting elections for the committee).
Comment by itsrattlesnake at 06/07/2015 at 18:23 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I really think np links do little to stop brigading. Ask any target of these meta subreddits (SRD being a great example) and they'l tell you what it's like being the target of the mob's ire.
Comment by lemurvomitX at 06/07/2015 at 19:15 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Stop shadowbanning users
Yes. It's a guaranteed way to alienate potentially good but new users, and does nothing to discourage people who are determined to break the site's rules.
If you want to correct undesirable behavior automatically, find a way to detect it and have the automation reverse the offending actions (e.g., participating in brigading) and send a message to the user informing them what they did wrong, which posts, comments, or votes were deleted, and how to prevent it from happening in the future.
Removing people from participation without even telling them makes for an absolutely awful user experience. Seriously, who thought this was a good idea? What kind of way is that to treat your site's users and content creators? It's just going to drive users somewhere else--after they've potentially spent months making posts and finally figure out they've been shadowbanned.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 22:21 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Stop shadowbanning users - It was a tool made for spam bots, not to silence dissent. The mere fact that a perfectly legitimate user can be shadowbanned without their knowledge is ridiculous, and it has been happening more and more in the past few months/year
I have given up on here with shadowbanning.
I randomly keep making an account and actually trying to be part of the community and boom, shadowban because mods get their panties in a wad.
/r/news is especially bad. I tried understanding why the TPP was bad when NO ONE knows what is in it and didn't understand why no one trusts the senators THEY elected and boom, shadowban.
I didn't even create the post, just commented in it.
Hell, the /r/Feminism and /r/AskWomen are better than most because when I strongly disagree with them in there I get downvoted and that is it. Posts are rarely deleted and I was never banned.
Comment by GameStunts at 06/07/2015 at 23:51 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Stop shadowbanning users - It was a tool made for spam bots, not to silence dissent. The mere fact that a perfectly legitimate user can be shadowbanned without their knowledge is ridiculous, and it has been happening more and more in the past few months/year
Thank you!
I recently realised I was shadowbanned from a sub where I was posting for fucking months. I only realised when I checked why nobody was responding to me by looking in incognito mode. None of my stuff was visible.
I messaged the mod team who immediately removed me from it, and said they didn't know why I'd been shadowbanned.
Shadowbanning is a shitty practice that basically nets reddit ad revenue while denying that person the ability to participate. Banning should come with a message and a right to appeal, especially if it's been done by automod.
Comment by [deleted] at 06/07/2015 at 19:54 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Also, redefine brigading. Two subs with similar topics may share some users. It's incredible that another sub can have a discussion but no one can be linked to it without fear of getting shadowbanned.
Obviously some brigading occurs, but if I'm a subscriber in /r/seahawks and click a link to /r/nfl where teams are being discussed, that is relevant and I should be able to contribute to the conversation. I may even subscribe so I can talk there more often. Instead, if my opinion differs from the masses, I can get get banned for brigading.
This has not actually happened to me but as a mod I've seen it happen to others. Not being able to link to other parts of this link aggregate site is the stupidest thing I've heard of.
Comment by codyave at 06/07/2015 at 18:38 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Hahahaha she'll never answer these questions