New wiki on how to avoid accidentally encouraging suicide, and how to spot covert incitement

https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/cz6nfd/new_wiki_on_how_to_avoid_accidentally_encouraging/

created by SQLwitch on 03/09/2019 at 15:49 UTC*

1779 upvotes, 59 top-level comments (showing 25)

We've been seeing a worrying increase in pro-suicide content showing up here and, and also going unreported. This undermines our purpose here, so we wanted to highlight and clarify our guidelines about both direct and indirect incitement of suicide.

We've created a wiki that covers these issues. We hope this will be helpful to anyone who's wondering whether something's okay here and which responses to report. It explains in detail why *any* validation of suicidal intent, even an "innocent" message like "if you're 100% committed, I'll just wish you peace" is likely to increase people's pain, and why it's important to report even subtle pro-suicide comments. The full text of the wiki's current version is below, and it is maintained at /r/SuicideWatch/wiki/incitement[1].

1: http://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/incitement

We deeply appreciate everyone who gives responsive, empathetic, non-judgemental support to our OPs, and we particularly thank everyone who's already been reporting incitement in all forms.

Please report any post or comment that encourages suicide (or that breaks any of the other guidelines in the sidebar) to the moderators, either by clicking the "report" button or by sending us a modmail[2] with a link. We deal with all guideline violations that are reported to us as soon as we can, but we can't read everything so community reports are essential. If you get a PM that breaks the guidelines, please report it both to the reddit sitewide admins[3] and to us in modmail.

2: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FSuicideWatch

3: http://www.reddit.com/report

Thanks to all the great citizens of the community who help flag problem content and behaviour for us.

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• **/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/incitement[4]***

4: http://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/incitement

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Summary###

• *It's important to respect and understand people's experiences and emotions. It's never necessary, helpful, or kind to support suicidal intent. There are some common misconceptions (discussed below) about suicidal people and how to help them that can cause well-meaning people to inadvertently incite suicide. There are also people online who incite suicide on purpose, often while pretending to be sympathetic and helpful.**

Validate Feelings and Experiences, Not Self-Destructive Intentions###

We're here to offer support, not judgement. That means accepting, with the best understanding we can offer, whatever emotions people express. Suicidal people are suffering, and we're here to try to ease that by providing support and caring. The most reliable way we know to de-escalate someone at risk is to give them the experience of feeling understood. That means not judging whether they should be feeling the way they are, or telling them what to do or not do.

But there's an important line to draw here. There's a crucial difference between empathizing with feelings and responding non-judgmentally to suicidal thoughts, and in any way endorsing, encouraging, or validating suicidal intentions or hopeless beliefs. **It's both possible and important to convey understanding and compassion for someone's suicidal thoughts without putting your finger on the scale of their decision.**

Anything that condones suicide, even passively, *encourages* suicide. It isn't supportive and does not help. It also violates reddit's sitewide rules as well as our guidelines. Explicitly inciting suicide online is a criminal offense in most jurisdictions.

Do not treat any OP's post as meaning that will definitely die by suicide and can't change their minds or be helped. Anyone who's able to read the comments here still has a chance to choose whether or not to try to keep living, even if they've also been experiencing intense thoughts of suicide, made a suicide plan, or started carrying it out.

In the most useful empirical model we have[5], the desire to die by suicide primarily comes from two interpersonal factors; alienation and a sense of being a burden or having nothing to offer. These factors usually lead to a profound feeling of being unwelcome in the world.

5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_theory_of_suicide

• *So, any acceptance or reinforcement of suicidal intent, even something "innocent" like "I hope you find peace", is actually a form of covert shunning that validates a person's sense that they're unwelcome in the world. It will usually add to their pain even if kindly meant and gently worded.**

How to Avoid Validating Suicidal Intent###

Keep the following in mind when offering support to anyone at risk for suicide.

• **People who say they don't want help usually can feel better if they get support that doesn't invalidate their emotions.** Unfortunately, many popular "good" responses are actually counterproductive[6]. In particular, many friends and family tend to rely exclusively on trying to convince the suicidal person that "it's not so bad", and this is usually experienced as "I don't understand what you're going through and I'm not going to try". People who've had "help" that made them feel worse don't want any more of the same. It doesn't mean that someone who actually knows how to be supportive can't give them any comfort.

6: https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2015/03/03/what-not-to-say/

• **Most people who are suicidal want to end their** ***pain,*** **not their lives.** It's almost never true that death is the only way to end these people's suffering. Of course there are exceptional situations, and we certainly acknowledge that, for some people, the right help can be difficult to find. But preventing someone's suicide doesn't mean prolonging their suffering if we do it by giving them real comfort and understanding.

• ***An unfixable problem doesn't mean that a good life will never be possible***. We don't have to fix or change anything to help someone feel better. It's important to keep in mind that the correlation between our outer circumstances and our inner experience is weaker and less direct than commonly assumed. For every kind of difficult life situation, you will find some people who lapse into suicidal despair, and others who cope amazingly well, and a whole spectrum in between. A key difference is how much inner resilience the person has at the time. This can depend on many personal and situational factors. But when there's not enough, interpersonal support can both compensate for its absence and help rebuild it. We go into more depth on the "it gets better" issue in this PSA Post[7] which is always linked from our sidebar (community info on mobile) guidelines.

7: https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/25igd7/whats_wrong_with_it_gets_better_what_if_it_doesnt/

• **There are** ***always*** **more choices than brutally forcing someone to stay alive or passively letting them end their lives**.

To avoid accidentally breaking the anti-incitement rule, don't say or try to imply that acting on suicidal thoughts is a good idea, or that someone can't turn back or is already dead. Do whatever you can to help them feel cared for and welcome, at least in this little corner of the world. Our talking tips[8] offer more detailed guidance.

8: http://redd.it/igh87

Look Out for Deliberate Incitement. It May Come in Disguise.###

Often comments that subtly encourage suicidal intent actually come from suicide fetishists and voyeurs (unfortunately this is a real and disturbing phenomenon[9]). People like this *are* out there and the anonymous nature of reddit makes us particularly attractive to them.

9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Melchert-Dinkel

They will typically try to scratch their psychological "itch" by saying things that push people closer to the edge. They often do this by exploiting the myths that we debunked in the bullet points above. Specifically you might see people doing the following:

• Encouraging the false belief that the only way suicidal people can end their pain is by dying. **There are** ***always*** **more and better choices than "brutally forcing someone to stay alive" or helping (actively or passively) them to end their lives**.

• Creating an artificial and toxic sense of "solidarity" by linking their encouragement of suicide to empathy. They will represent themselves as the only one who really understand the suicidal person, while either directly or indirectly encouraging their self-loathing emotions and self-destructive impulses. **Since most people in suicidal crisis are in desperate need to empathy and understanding, this is a particularly dangerous form of manipulation.**

Many suicide inciters are adept at putting a benevolent spin on their activities while actually luring people away from sources of real help. A couple of key points to keep in mind:

• **Skilled suicide intervention -- peer or professional -- is based on empathic responsiveness to the person's feelings that reduces their suffering in the moment.** Contrary to pop-culture myths, it does **not** involve persuasion ("Don't do it!"), cheerleading ("You've got this!") or meaningless false promises ("Trust me, it gets better!"), or invalidation ("Let me show you how things aren't as bad as you think!"). Anyone who leads others to expect these kinds of toxic responses, or any other response that prolongs their pain, from expert help may be covertly pro-suicide. (Of course, people sometimes do have bad experience when seeking mental-health treatment, and it's fine to vent about those, but processing our own disappointment and frustration is entirely different from trying to destroy someone else's hope of getting help.)

• **Choices made by competent responders are always informed by the understanding that breaching someone's trust is traumatic and must be avoided if possible.** Any kind of involuntary intervention is an **extremely unlikely** outcome when someone consults a clinician or calls a hotline. (Confidentiality is addressed in more detail in our Hotlines FAQ post[10]). The goal is always to provide all help with the client's full knowledge and informed consent. We know that no individual or system is perfect. Mistakes that lead to bad experiences do sometimes happen to vulnerable people, and we have enormous sympathy for them. But anyone who suggests that this is the norm might be trying to scare people away from the help they need.

10: http://redd.it/1c7ntr

Please let us know discreetly[11] if you see anyone exhibiting these or similar behaviours. We don't recommend trying to engage with them directly.

11: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FSuicideWatch

Comments

Comment by DepressiveSaga at 03/09/2019 at 20:34 UTC

159 upvotes, 5 direct replies

I'm sorry did you say suicide fetishists? As in people who actually find pleasure in others committing suicide?

Comment by mystymaples71 at 10/09/2019 at 04:00 UTC

68 upvotes, 4 direct replies

I didn’t necessarily see this addressed, perhaps I overlooked it. I personally think the whole “it gets better” campaign was BS. It’s not 100% true, yay for those whose lives have improved and they can honestly look back and say wow, I’m really glad I didn’t die. Is that little bandaid still discouraged? I hope so. Because as someone who has wanted to die (not necessarily kill myself) since I was probably at least 25, and I’m now 48 and at the lowest point I’ve been, it does not get better. And it can get worse.

I would never encourage anyone to kill themselves. But if their mind is made up, I want them to know it’s ok, I want them to be at peace because it’s obviously not with them now.

Comment by another_try_8 at 06/09/2019 at 09:25 UTC

47 upvotes, 2 direct replies

I read so much about what NOT to do, what not to say. Just let the person know you are there for them. "It must be hard to feel this way" blabla. OKAY. Nice. That works fine the first time, maybe a second time the person tells you that. But if this person repeats themselfs OVER AND OVER AGAIN. For the last fucking 3 years, every day, everrrryyy fucking day, WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO SAY? If they keep saying that they are useless, that nothing is gonna help, that they need to die, that everyone is better off without them, everyday. What am I supposed to respond? Evertyime just "oh it must be hard to feel this way" or "I wish I could help you get better". Just let them sit there and not try to find a way out? This person extects help. Would be great if you gave tips about how to behave THEN. The long-term-conversation.

Comment by [deleted] at 04/09/2019 at 03:50 UTC

62 upvotes, 3 direct replies

For the longest time, I thought this was a sub in which people could share their suicidal tendencies without judgement or ridicule and find support...not to stay alive, but in whatever decision they ended up making. Definitely wrong about that.

Comment by ColumbineBunnyBoy at 18/09/2019 at 23:14 UTC

19 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Bruuuh if a sane person wants to die it’s their right.

Comment by Cocotte3333 at 03/09/2019 at 21:23 UTC

13 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Oh my gosh thank you for this. Sometimes I feel like I'm annoying for reporting so much posts and comments, but it was disturbing me.

Comment by [deleted] at 10/09/2019 at 03:47 UTC

27 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Everyone in the place is just incredibly condescending.

Comment by Blastmasterism324 at 08/11/2019 at 20:56 UTC

9 upvotes, 2 direct replies

I don't know why, but that simple phrase "I hope you find peace" riles me up. Like you said, it just feels like dismissiveness and a lack of willingness to actually try talking to and comforting the person. And people on this sub continue to use it even after you outline it's a form of "covert shunning."

Comment by [deleted] at 22/09/2019 at 23:53 UTC

9 upvotes, 1 direct replies

This undermines our purpose here

Not trying to be funny, but what *is* your purpose? I've been coming here for years and it seems like this place is only helpful for people who have made attempts. Any other posts are either ignored or closed/locked.

Comment by 3SavileRowScruff at 07/10/2019 at 05:00 UTC

14 upvotes, 1 direct replies

This just kind of makes me feel afraid to post here, like I’ll get banned for expressing the pain that makes me want to kill myself. It just adds to my sense of rejection like not even this place wants me. Thanks. I’ll just keep it to myself like always

Comment by lilacwishbone at 08/09/2019 at 07:01 UTC

6 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Some subs let you state which sub rule is broken when you report on mobile. Is there a reason that's not the case here? Itd make it easier for mobile users to help.

Comment by MeaninglessFester at 26/01/2020 at 19:54 UTC

6 upvotes, 0 direct replies

This is kinda why I stopped commenting, I find it hard not to start accidentally agreeing when I myself truly want to die.

Comment by mattcojo at 19/09/2019 at 03:54 UTC

5 upvotes, 2 direct replies

I read the wiki. And I’ve got a question.

I don’t know why but I feel like a good way to help people is to be perfectly blunt and honest with them. No forms of sugaring it up with cliche and lazy phrases including “it gets better” or “please don’t do it” but I have my own way that I want to know if it’s appropriate. Something along the lines of a response i might do is below.

“I’m not going to tell you that I understand what you’re going through, or what your life is like. I can’t promise that your life will get better. But just remember, if you’re thinking about going through with killing yourself, just remember that you don’t get a second chance, no take backs or anything like that. Be sure to remember the things that you could lose by going through with it. Would suicide solve all of your problems or just create more? That’s up for you to decide. I refuse to encourage either side, make your decision in the way you see fit. Promise me that you’ll make the choice that benefits you, and you only.”

Comment by StudiousAR at 23/10/2019 at 14:56 UTC

8 upvotes, 1 direct replies

I wish this sub was more free, more open. If and when I write my own last post; I wouldn't want people to be banned for wishing me good luck. That it's okay to finally let go, you know? Some people just need reassurance. That the darkness is finally ending, that it's okay to finally go into that good night.

I agree that "lol do it" or anything aggressively promoting suicide is problematic and shouldn't be encouraged. But there's unity in knowing that people understand and that they're in the same boat. I've seen people unfairly banned for that. Someone was offering their sincere hopes that whatever an OP did that they would find the solace they couldn't here, in the now. And bam! Banned for life.

I haven't said anything remotely like that but I'm a bit paranoid I'll be banned for even mentioning it. posting from another account just so my main one doesn't get roasted for asking

Comment by danielpetersrastet at 04/10/2019 at 15:17 UTC

3 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Is there any good place to discuss the pros and cons of death? I am not suicidal but just curious

Comment by brokenunspoken at 03/12/2019 at 23:14 UTC

6 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Absolute bullshite.

Comment by whothewhatthewhere at 11/10/2019 at 03:52 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! I am recently new to reddit; I decided to get it after finding this subreddit as I found it comforting to know I wasn’t alone in this battle and that if I had things to share but nobody in my life to share it to, I could come here. I was surprised about a lot of the responses though, especially where people would say “I hope you find peace, good luck,” and was under the impression that this was a really nice, supportive comment sand was the way you should go about talking to suicidal people. But, this post completely puts it into the right perspective, so thank you for taking the time out to correct this misinformation. I will make sure to take this on board in the future.

Comment by [deleted] at 01/11/2019 at 02:40 UTC

2 upvotes, 1 direct replies

I learned things

Comment by TheGhoulishSword at 24/11/2019 at 05:08 UTC

2 upvotes, 3 direct replies

I know this may sound strange, but, once when I was feeling suicidal, a friend told me that, if I did he would understand. He said that, although he hoped that I wouldn't,he would understand and support whichever decision I made. For some reason that was a very interesting moment because, for me, it kinda helped. It felt like someone actually understood what I was feeling. Whenever I confess to feeling like that, I usually get met with "it gets better" "things could be much worse" or something like those. I'm not saying that this would work for anyone other than me, just relaying my strange experience. Or, I would consider it strange.

Comment by Aethrin1 at 01/01/2020 at 07:57 UTC*

2 upvotes, 1 direct replies

No offense, but last time I asked for help on this subreddit the only response I got was encouragement to kill myself and a few, "oh, I'm sorry but not really" crap So yeah, it's a thing.

Look, I know you guys have been really wonderful and have been working really hard to help many on this subreddit. I don't mean this as a discouragement, but as a to affirm what was said above.

And as for the curators, thank you guys. It may be difficult to be here all the time, but I know that what you do does make a difference.

Comment by C1ND3RK1TT3N at 17/01/2020 at 21:20 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Thank you for this sub. I never imagined something like this existed on social media, So much knowledge and experience demonstrated in this thread. /respect

Comment by Kiplingesque at 06/02/2020 at 01:10 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Thank you for having clear boundaries for this community!

Comment by TeeZup676 at 24/02/2020 at 02:10 UTC

2 upvotes, 1 direct replies

as a suicidal person who has lost passion to put forth effort in life, i thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting forth the effort to create this sub and make solutions to make it better.

Comment by lifegotmeagain at 26/09/2019 at 17:33 UTC

5 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Brutally forcing someone to stay alive.

Comment by Soltrix at 05/09/2019 at 00:08 UTC

2 upvotes, 1 direct replies

I made a point out of reading as many posts I could when I could, and reporting both posts and replies that made me feel uncomfortable regarding the scope of this subreddit. That said there was never any feedback. I understand it's quite feasible that a lot of things I reported may have been deemed acceptable or have been reported multiple times.

That said however it has lead me to cherry pick posts where I can mostly share my experiences to help a person and ignore comments from others unless in the thread of conversation. I understand giving direct feedback all the time is a lot to ask but letting users know that their feedback is received and acknowledged? I'm not here with a solution but a representation of my predicament.