created by krow28946 on 02/12/2024 at 03:02 UTC*
476 upvotes, 60 top-level comments (showing 25)
Topic: Sustainability culture, veganism, fast fashion cancel culture, health food, and "green" living are stances steeped in financial privilege. People who live in cities don't understand the realities of the poorer parts of the country.
EDIT: as per the Dynamics of the internet, a straw man argument has been pointed out I don't know how many times already. Yes, I am absolutely aware that there are poor people in the cities. I used to be a truck driver and have driven all over the United States. My point being that SOME people who live in a city environment and have the money to afford the best green living products that capitalism can provide don't understand the realities of living in a poor town in the Midwest.
I'm a thirty year old living in the Midwest. Dual income household, no kids. Median household income in my town is $38k. My partner and I make about $60k/year combined. We're building a very small house on a small plot of land my mother gifted us after saving money religiously by living in a moldy, dilapidated rental for the past eight years.
We recently found out that this project is going to almost completely wipe our savings due to some unexpected expenses. If you've never built a house before... DON'T. It's the most stressful thing. For context, the cost of this project is still far below the median home price in my town.
I've started freaking out, as is expected, and tightening the budget. I'm picking canned foods, cheap "unhealthy" meals, and eating lots of cheaper meats, including more of the deer my husband hunted and we processed. I get my clothes from both Shein and thrift stores. I buy plastic wrapped produce at Aldi because it's cheaper than our local farmers market where poor folk just want to make a buck. I buy cheap household things on Amazon because I can't afford the "good" stuff.
Here's the deal. I worked for an organic supplement company for four years. You would not believe the amount of plastic and cardboard that ONE manufacturer goes through in ONE DAY. Years of my effort at helping the earth and other humans are laughably offset a million times over by one day of manufacturing "health food products" at one site. Now imagine the thousands of manufacturing sites all over the world.
TLDR: I don't CARE about your condescending, holier than thou comments about my lifestyle when money is tight. If you have the funds to buy organic market produce, ethical clothes, and plastic free alternatives, fucking cool. If someone else can't afford to do that, leave them the fuck alone.
Comment by AutoModerator at 02/12/2024 at 03:02 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This post has been flaired as “Opinion”. Do not use this flair to vent, but to open up a venue for polite discussions.
1: /message/compose/?to=/r/SeriousConversation
Comment by merlot120 at 02/12/2024 at 03:30 UTC
147 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs comes into play. The physical requirements of survival must be met before filling other needs. Air, water, food and shelter.
Comment by Sparkythedog77 at 02/12/2024 at 03:25 UTC
47 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I feel this. I get free food at work yet it's not exactly healthy but it's free so he'll ya I'm taking it. I tried to go vegan but became sick from the lack of nutrients and not being able to afford expensive vitamins. My step dad was a hunter so I got free moose and elk meat. Veggies and fruit in the winter in canada can be very expensive. I hate beans. I live in a small one bedroom apartment and don't use a lot of power because it's just me yet. I'm low income too and cheap clothes are all I can afford because even thrift store prices are getting ridiculous. So I totally agree with this post.
Comment by ElAwesomeo0812 at 02/12/2024 at 03:54 UTC
23 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Taking care of you and your family should be your top priority. You don't need to live above your means for the sake of environmentalism. If you are so inclined there are other things you can do to help out also. Things like composting/gardening or recycling are ways to be eco friendly without breaking the bank. If those things aren't for you then that's fine too. The only thing that might be more annoying than being accused of not caring about the environment is being asked to donate to some new cause every time you go to the store. Just because you don't buy organic or donate to cause X, when you are just getting by yourself, doesn't mean you don't care. Pardon my French but those that put you down for that can go fuck themselves, it's none of their damn business.
Comment by Ulerica at 02/12/2024 at 04:39 UTC
40 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Sustainability is supposed to be the burden of the manufacturers anyways, how can you live sustainably when the majority of their production isn't?
Comment by No_File_5225 at 02/12/2024 at 03:14 UTC
62 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Exactly, and it's not your problem. It's the problem of the economic system that pushes profit at the expense of things that actually matter like health and sustainability
Comment by Brrrrrr_Its_Cold at 02/12/2024 at 04:58 UTC
15 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Agreed. I’m all for shopping sustainability, but sometimes it’s just not realistic. You’ve got to do what’s right for yourself and your family. If that means tightening your food budget, by all means, do what you need to do.
People who live in cities don’t understand the realities of the poorer parts of the country.
Just a side note, there are plenty of impoverished people living in the city. When I was a kid, my parents (long time city-dwellers) went through a long period of extreme poverty. So did some of my friends. We’re not all living it up here.
Comment by pumpkin_breads at 02/12/2024 at 04:21 UTC
11 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Yup. I used to get almond milk and avoid milk/yogurt at the store. Well milk was real cheap on sale and is usually a dollar or two less than the almond milks. I caved and got that instead for the first time in years. My morning coffee does taste creamier.
Comment by Morrighan1129 at 02/12/2024 at 10:38 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
So much this. I live in an area that gets 60-70 inches of snow in a regular year on average. Our temperatures plummet in October, and we spend at least three months a year with single digit or negative temps.
Yet I get shit on for having a wood stove. Like... I literally cannot *afford* to heat my house with electric or propane. And everybody goes, "But think of future generations!" Well, I'm not gonna let my kids -the *next* generation -freeze to death for your hypothetical future generation, because you think that's a better alternative.
Comment by duckduckthis99 at 02/12/2024 at 04:46 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
We should have laws to make the business responsible but we don't. I don't like that they blame, us, the individual, as though we have a god damn choice.
I've concluded those unspoken rules are for people who aren't living in the proletarian class. I consider it a middle class issue & a government problem.
So much of our food and items come covered in plastic. If "people" gave a shit about the environment they'd make ridiculous things like single serve snacks illegal. Yet instead they tell you it's your fault if you buy it?? Excuse me? You made this shit and you'll continue to make it whether I buy it or not. The guilt doesn't lie with me.
So I understand, OP. I hope after the house is built it's everything you wanted and more <3
Comment by jamesk29485 at 02/12/2024 at 03:32 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It's not so much the manufacturing; it's the people that buy the products. All these people talking about the environment, while they just keep consuming. Then telling someone else what to do. There's no way this will end well.
I'm with you on the house. Luckily I did it when I was much younger. It was great experience, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. But, flip side is it's paid for.
If you can make a small plot somewhere around your house, grow a few vegetables. That helps a lot with our food bill.
Comment by ILoveBreadMore at 02/12/2024 at 04:29 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I hope nobody is giving you shit in your day to day life, you’re completely correct. You need to do what you need to do to survive that’s the priority.
Comment by justagenericname213 at 02/12/2024 at 07:01 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Tangentially related, I hate people talking about how the US dollar is doing, it doesn't matter if it's worth 100 or 10,000 of some other currency when I'm making the same money and groceries are costing me more.
Comment by specimen174 at 02/12/2024 at 04:11 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
you are correct. "morals are the playthings of the well fed" <-- society will find this out (again) during the next depression/world war
Comment by GoofyKitty4UUU at 02/12/2024 at 05:32 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I strongly suspect a lot of the people who preach those things, as well as activists, have some very unhealthy emotional tendencies. Many are likely living those lifestyles because they have a desire to feel morally superior to others and need a socially acceptable way to abuse others for dopamine hits rather than much concern about the issues. It’s not all that different from the way some religious people act. There’s so much emotional abuse that I’ve seen happen in online activism, and it’s really not okay. You can care about the issues and do what you’re able and feel intrinsically motivated to do, not what an outside party attempts to manipulate you to do.
Comment by 4travelers at 02/12/2024 at 10:26 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Building a house is stressful, but once you are done you’ll have a place that you can blame no one but yourself for what is not right about it, we built our house 30 years ago and still talk about what we should have done but didn’t have the money to do.
Those things are phases kids go through until they grow up, the only ones I know who hang onto them are the kids of the rich.
Comment by noonesine at 02/12/2024 at 13:52 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I get it. When I was dirt poor sometimes it was difficult to give a shit because all I was focused on was trying to survive. However, equity is a big part of sustainable agriculture - and fighting against the agriculture conglomerates that are partially responsible for the inequity you’re feeling. I feel like big ag is often left off of the list of corporations which are fueling our capitalist hell, but it shouldn’t be.
Comment by Diet_Connect at 02/12/2024 at 16:00 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Honestly, a lot of what you mentioned in the n the first paragraph are fads or lifestyles advertised to sell products. There are kenrals of noble ideas at the center, but yeah, money to make a living.
If you need to buy basic staples, it's okay.
Comment by TheSonicArrow at 02/12/2024 at 07:30 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I've been saying the same thing. If you have the time to think about this type of shit, you're more privileged than you think. People right now are struggling, and they can't afford the bougie crap that shows "I pretend to care about the planet to look good". Organic usually means no pesticides, which means that there are more bugs and droppings from varmints in the food. It's so gross to think about the droppings from the creatures that invade the fields being in there. But organic is pushed hard, so I guess people can deal with the higher percentage of shit in the food. I'll take my food that's been protected by pesticides and then washed by the store misting system thank you.
But yeah, if someone has the time to think about this kind of crap, they're privileged. Then the hubris of telling those struggling to afford regular food is appalling.
Comment by MrSpicyPotato at 02/12/2024 at 03:30 UTC
6 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I want to validate what you’re discussing because I do agree that there is an element of classism in certain environmental communities. However, some environmentalists very much acknowledge environmental injustice, which includes economically disadvantaged people.
Many environmentalists also know that greenwashing is real, and I would argue that organic supplements generally fall under that category. The truly best environmental practice is to get your nutrients from local food sources, and in some cases, like for certain produce in California, that’s also the cheaper option because there aren’t shipping costs and the climate generally supports a bounty.
I guess my main reaction to this post is that the tone is defensive and sort of lumping together unrelated things (like cancel culture). Overall, though, my experience is that environmentalists understand that it’s not on the consumer to fix climate change; it’s on corporations. Industry could make so many changes to make environmental living cheaper and the more “default” choice. It’s just that sadly, it’s more profitable to cater to rich people.
Comment by Prestigious_Share103 at 02/12/2024 at 04:37 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Everyone is a hypocrite in some sense. I recall a video of a rich woman outside her mansion that proudly signed in front of the camera the petition to bring undocumented immigrants to the city, and then fucking freaked out when she was told she signed an agreement to allow a family to stay with her. It’s all just signaling.
Comment by Carthuluoid at 02/12/2024 at 07:03 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I don't think you're the problem. If you struggle to afford food, there's a limit to how much you are consuming or contributing to the unsustainable economy. In fact, we will probably always need a certain amount of support sustenance for people in need.
Feed yourself. Support or encourage those in your life who make sustainable choices, and if one day you find you've moved beyond living hand to mouth, then raise the bar and make some new choices you can feel good about.
Best of luck, and I hope there is always food for your table.
Comment by MatchaArt3D at 02/12/2024 at 07:28 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Yep, big corporations are responsible for the vast majority of waste. Individual contributions are great, but at mass scale are less than a rounding error in comparison to what Amazon or Walmart put out by the millisecond.
I make the sustainable and healthy choices that make sense for me and my lifestyle. I recycle most of our plastic and metal waste, I reuse shipping supplies like boxes, I thrift the vast majority of my clothing locally and enjoy visiting the bins on my weekends to find treasures and rescue cool stuff from going to the landfill to make a small profit on the side. I shop at farm-to-table and local markets when able.
Does it matter? Again compared to Amazon, no. But I'm doing the little I am able, and for now, until things change (and its looking like they won't for a while), that's the best I can do. The rest of my energy is spent surviving (I have good income but struggle with mental health and come from deep familial poverty).
We survive today so that, maybe, someday, we might have a brighter future. Though right now tis looking pretty bleak and I'm just focusing on me and finding what little pleasure I can.
Comment by Harpeski at 02/12/2024 at 08:11 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
and that what i hate about some the more radical green politician.
They dont seem to understand this.
Like putting higher taxes on more polluting cars.
Man i cant afford a electrical car, i wish i could, but i cant.
So they are screwing over every single household/single/low income.
It shows: most of the car brand are really struggling to sell they €40 000+ electrical cars to the middle men. They cant, and now people are getting fired because of the low sale.
All because of the radical views of green politicians, who themself earn Quadruple the medium income
And a few countries over they are warming houses with coal, meanwhile our gov insist people invest in very expensive heatpumps 'to save the planet'. But than jack up the price of electricity because the electricity grid cant handle the heatpumps.
Electricity is like 7 times more expensive than gas. But now you are not allowed to build a house that heats up with gas.
Comment by oddball_ocelot at 02/12/2024 at 12:30 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
The whole thing is about doing the best you can. That best might be a green house and locally sourced ethical or sustainable foods or EV/walking/ biking. The best might be keeping a roof over your head and food in your fridge. For me in the past my best was food in my children's stomachs, not always mine. So every day you do the best you can. You give 100% of what you have. There's not a bar or benchmark to meet.