https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditSafety/comments/pfyqqn/covid_denialism_and_policy_clarifications/
created by worstnerd on 01/09/2021 at 17:30 UTC
18264 upvotes, 111 top-level comments (showing 25)
“Happy” Wednesday everyone
As u/spez mentioned in his announcement post[1] last week, COVID has been hard on all of us. It will likely go down as one of the most defining periods of our generation. Many of us have lost loved ones to the virus. It has caused confusion, fear, frustration, and served to further divide us. It is my job to oversee the enforcement of our policies on the platform. I’ve never professed to be perfect at this. Our policies, and how we enforce them, evolve with time. We base these evolutions on two things: user trends and data. Last year, after we rolled out the largest policy change in Reddit’s history[2], I shared a post[3] on the prevalence of hateful content on the platform. Today, many of our users are telling us that they are confused and even frustrated with our handling of COVID denial content on the platform, so it seemed like the right time for us to share some data around the topic.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/pbmy5y/debate_dissent_and_protest_on_reddit/
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/hi3oht/update_to_our_content_policy/
We sought to answer the following questions:
Below is a chart of all of the COVID-related content that has been posted on the platform since January 1, 2020. We are using common keywords and known COVID focused communities to measure this. The volume has been relatively flat since mid last year, but since July (coinciding with the increased prevalence of the Delta variant), we have seen a sizable increase.
The trend is even more notable when we look at COVID-related content reported to us by users. Since August, we see approximately 2.5k reports/day vs an average of around 500 reports/day a year ago. This is approximately 2.5% of all COVID related content.
While this data alone does not tell us that COVID denial content on the platform is increasing, it is certainly an indicator. To help make this story more clear, we looked into potential networks of denial communities. There are some well known subreddits dedicated to discussing and challenging the policy response to COVID, and we used this as a basis to identify other similar subreddits. I’ll refer to these as “high signal subs.”
Last year, we saw that less than 1% of COVID content came from these high signal subs, today we see that it's over 3%. COVID content in these communities is around 3x more likely to be reported than in other communities (this is fairly consistent over the last year). Together with information above we can infer that there has been an increase in COVID denial content on the platform, and that increase has been more pronounced since July. While the increase is suboptimal, it is noteworthy that the large majority of the content is outside of these COVID denial subreddits. It’s also hard to put an exact number on the increase or the overall volume.
An important part of our moderation structure is the community members themselves. How are users responding to COVID-related posts? How much visibility do they have? Is there a difference in the response in these high signal subs than the rest of Reddit?
High Signal Subs
All Other Subs
This tells us that in these high signal subs, there is generally less of the critical feedback mechanism than we would expect to see in other non-denial based subreddits, which leads to content in these communities being more visible than the typical COVID post in other subreddits.
In addition to this, we have also been investigating the claims around targeted interference by some of these subreddits. While we want to be a place where people can explore unpopular views, it is never acceptable to interfere with other communities. Claims of “brigading” are common and often hard to quantify. However, in this case, we found very clear signals indicating that r/NoNewNormal was the source of around 80 brigades in the last 30 days (largely directed at communities with more mainstream views on COVID or location-based communities that have been discussing COVID restrictions). This behavior continued even after a warning was issued from our team to the Mods. r/NoNewNormal is the only subreddit in our list of high signal subs where we have identified this behavior and it is one of the largest sources of community interference we surfaced as part of this work (we will be investigating a few other unrelated subreddits as well).
We are taking several actions:
1. Ban r/NoNewNormal immediately for breaking our rules against brigading
2. Quarantine 54 additional COVID denial subreddits under Rule 1[4]
3. Build a new reporting feature for moderators to allow them to better provide us signal when they see community interference. It will take us a few days to get this built, and we will subsequently evaluate the usefulness of this feature.
4: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy
We also hear the feedback that our policies are not clear around our handling of health misinformation. To address this, we wanted to provide a summary of our current approach to misinformation/disinformation in our Content Policy[5].
5: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy
Our approach is broken out into (1) how we deal with health misinformation (falsifiable health related information that is disseminated regardless of intent), (2) health disinformation (falsifiable health information that is disseminated with an intent to mislead), (3) problematic subreddits that pose misinformation risks, and (4) problematic users who invade other subreddits to “debate” topics unrelated to the wants/needs of that community.
1. Health Misinformation. We have long interpreted our rule against posting content that “encourages” physical harm, in this help center article[6], as covering health misinformation, meaning falsifiable health information that encourages or poses a significant risk of physical harm to the reader. For example, a post pushing a verifiably false “cure” for cancer that would actually result in harm to people would violate our policies.
6: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151
2. Health Disinformation. Our rule against impersonation, as described in this help center article[7], extends to “manipulated content presented to mislead.” We have interpreted this rule as covering health disinformation, meaning falsifiable health information that has been manipulated and presented to mislead. This includes falsified medical data and faked WHO/CDC advice.
7: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043075032
3. Problematic subreddits. We have long applied quarantine[8] to communities that warrant additional scrutiny. The purpose of quarantining a community is to prevent its content from being accidentally viewed or viewed without appropriate context.
8: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043069012
4. Community Interference. Also relevant to the discussion of the activities of problematic subreddits, Rule 2[9] forbids users or communities from “cheating” or engaging in “content manipulation” or otherwise interfering with or disrupting Reddit communities. We have interpreted this rule as forbidding communities from manipulating the platform, creating inauthentic conversations, and picking fights with other communities. We typically enforce Rule 2 through our anti-brigading efforts, although it is still an example of bad behavior that has led to bans of a variety of subreddits.
9: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy
As I mentioned at the start, we never claim to be perfect at these things but our goal is to constantly evolve. These prevalence studies are helpful for evolving our thinking. We also need to evolve how we communicate our policy and enforcement decisions. As always, I will stick around to answer your questions and will also be joined by u/traceroo our GC and head of policy.
Comment by justcool393 at 01/09/2021 at 17:43 UTC
67 upvotes, 7 direct replies
Claims of “brigading” are common and often hard to quantify. However, in this case, we found very clear signals indicating that r/NoNewNormal was the source of around 80 brigades in the last 30 days (largely directed at communities with more mainstream views on COVID or location-based communities that have been discussing COVID restrictions). This behavior continued even after a warning was issued from our team to the Mods.
Two questions
1. Can you all define brigading for everyone? I know it's somewhat nebulous, but mods, especially of meta subreddits that deal with that sort of thing, would probably greatly benefit.
2. How can a mod team prevent brigading by their sub's members, especially given that they have no power over other subreddits?
Comment by thecravenone at 01/09/2021 at 17:45 UTC
114 upvotes, 6 direct replies
Why is this being announced in a sub with only 28k subs instead of /r/announcements?
Comment by Watchful1 at 01/09/2021 at 17:36 UTC*
243 upvotes, 14 direct replies
Why was the original announcement post from last week locked and this one isn't?
I guess thanks for acting eventually, I wish this was the initial response to the calls for action rather than spez openly saying that misinformation was equivalent to debate.
Ivermectin specifically is explicitly not approved for use as a treatment against covid, but r/ivermectin exists almost solely to promote it as such. Why was it not included in the ban?
Edit: ~~as of now, r/NoNewNormal isn't banned yet~~ now banned
Comment by Halaku at 01/09/2021 at 17:48 UTC
543 upvotes, 9 direct replies
We are taking several actions:
* Ban r/NoNewNormal immediately for breaking our rules against brigading
* Quarantine 54 additional COVID denial subreddits under Rule 1
* Build a new reporting feature for moderators to allow them to better provide us signal when they see community interference. It will take us a few days to get this built, and we will subsequently evaluate the usefulness of this feature.
On the one hand: **Thank you**.
On the other hand: Contrast today's post here on r/Redditsecurity with the post six days ago[1] on r/Announcements which was (intended or not) widely interpreted by the userbase as *"r/NoNewNormal is not doing anything wrong."* Did something drastic change in those six days? Was the r/Announcements post made before Reddit's security team could finish compiling their data? Did Reddit take this action due to the response that the r/Announcements post generated? Should, perhaps, Reddit **not** take to the r/Announcements page *before* checking to make sure that everyone's on the same page? Whereas I, as myself, want to believe that Reddit was in the process of making the right call, and the r/Annoucements post was more one approaching the situation for a philosophy *vs* policy standpoint, Reddit's actions open the door to accusations of "They tried to let the problem subreddits get away with it in the name of Principal, and had to backpedal *fast* when they saw the result", and that's an "own goal" that didn't need to happen.
1: https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/pbmy5y/debate_dissent_and_protest_on_reddit/
On the gripping hand: With the banning of r/The_Donald and now r/NoNewNormal, Reddit appears to be leaning into the philosophy of "While the principals of free speech, free expression of ideas, and the marketplace of competing ideas are all critical to a functioning democracy and to humanity as a whole, *none of those principals are absolutes*, and users / communities that attempt to weaponize them will not be tolerated." Is that an accurate summation?
In closing, thank you for all the hard work, and for being willing to stamp out the inevitable ban evasion subs, face the vitrol-laced response of the targeted members / communities, and all the other ramifications of trying to make Reddit a better place. It's appreciated.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 17:49 UTC
64 upvotes, 3 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by WhoaItsAFactorial at 01/09/2021 at 17:45 UTC
265 upvotes, 6 direct replies
While we want to be a place where people can explore unpopular views
Sure, I agree. People should be able to debate if a hotdog is a sandwich. But "COVID is a lie and the vaccine will kill you to thin world population" isn't an unpopular opinion, its a blatantly false statement.
Comment by lazydictionary at 01/09/2021 at 17:46 UTC
116 upvotes, 5 direct replies
Well, thanks for banning that sub months later than it should have been, for *brigading*, instead of all the misinformation they posted.
Task failed successfully I guess.
Comment by ani625 at 01/09/2021 at 17:44 UTC
274 upvotes, 9 direct replies
Ban r/NoNewNormal immediately for breaking our rules against brigading
Sure, we'll take it. But a better reason would be for dangerous misinformation with a potential to kill people.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 17:59 UTC
30 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by OwenProGolfer at 01/09/2021 at 17:40 UTC
36 upvotes, 3 direct replies
So you won’t ban them for harmful misinformation but you’ll ban them for brigading?
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 17:53 UTC
38 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by redneckrockuhtree at 01/09/2021 at 18:07 UTC
10 upvotes, 1 direct replies
So, when do you start banning the mods of subs that get banned? Until you do that, leaving the mods to continue their behavior is just putting lipstick on the pig of subs/mods that violate policies.
Comment by Edgelands at 01/09/2021 at 17:51 UTC
34 upvotes, 2 direct replies
So r/conspiracy?
Comment by 06210311 at 01/09/2021 at 18:01 UTC
21 upvotes, 2 direct replies
It sounds like /u/spez ought to be quarantined.
Comment by sergioA127 at 01/09/2021 at 21:49 UTC
7 upvotes, 1 direct replies
So people can invade other subs with horse porn but talking about conspiracies is a crime...
Comment by peetss at 02/09/2021 at 00:01 UTC
9 upvotes, 2 direct replies
So you'll ban a sub like /r/NoNewNormal for brigading, but not /r/vaxxhappened for openly organizing a brigade against /r/ivermectin?
Some bias you got there.
Comment by PiercedMonk at 01/09/2021 at 17:50 UTC
207 upvotes, 6 direct replies
Excellent news!
Can you confirm that all these subs will be removed?
NoNewNormal - https://reddit.com/r/NoNewNormal[1]
Ivermectin - https://reddit.com/r/ivermectin[2]
ChinaFlu - https://reddit.com/r/ChinaFlu[3]
Wuhan_Flu - https://reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu[4]
VaxKampf - https://reddit.com/r/vaxkampf[5]
FauciForPrison - https://reddit.com/r/fauciforprison[6]
CovidIsAFraud - https://reddit.com/r/covidisafraud[7]
DebateVaccines - https://reddit.com/r/DebateVaccines[8]
lockdownskepticism - https://reddit.com/r/lockdownskepticism[9]
CoronavirusCirclejerk - https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusCirclejerk[10]
CoronavirusFOS - https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusFOS[11]
COVID19 - https://reddit.com/r/COVID19[12] (With two underscores)
Covid19Origin - https://reddit.com/r/Covid19Origin[13]
VAERSreports - https://reddit.com/r/VAERSreports[14]
covid19_testimonials - https://reddit.com/r/covid19_testimonials[15]
CoronavirusRights - https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusRights[16]
vaccinelonghaulers - https://reddit.com/r/vaccinelonghaulers[17]
conspiracy_commons - https://reddit.com/r/conspiracy_commons[18]
Church of Covid - https://reddit.com/r/churchofcovid[19]
trueantivaccination - https://reddit.com/r/trueantivaccination[20]
covidvaccinateduncut - https://reddit.com/r/covidvaccinateduncut[21]
1: https://reddit.com/r/NoNewNormal
2: https://reddit.com/r/ivermectin
3: https://reddit.com/r/ChinaFlu
4: https://reddit.com/r/Wuhan_Flu
5: https://reddit.com/r/vaxkampf
6: https://reddit.com/r/fauciforprison
7: https://reddit.com/r/covidisafraud
8: https://reddit.com/r/DebateVaccines
9: https://reddit.com/r/lockdownskepticism
10: https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusCirclejerk
11: https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusFOS
12: https://reddit.com/r/COVID19
13: https://reddit.com/r/Covid19Origin
14: https://reddit.com/r/VAERSreports
15: https://reddit.com/r/covid19_testimonials
16: https://reddit.com/r/CoronavirusRights
17: https://reddit.com/r/vaccinelonghaulers
18: https://reddit.com/r/conspiracy_commons
19: https://reddit.com/r/churchofcovid
20: https://reddit.com/r/trueantivaccination
21: https://reddit.com/r/covidvaccinateduncut
Comment by doublevsn at 01/09/2021 at 17:40 UTC*
81 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Thanks for the update, u/worstnerd. Glad to see that r/NoNewNormal will be banned (although the primary reason should be the obvious COVID denialism). I also think that quarantined subreddits should have some restrictions in place, as a simple message only does so much.
Edit; I do hope Admins realize that NNN and other COVID denialism subreddits are like the hydra, you ban one - and 2 more in relation are formed. The same is applied to bots - and would help the sanity of the users that fail to realize it and go on to make the complaint over at r/ModSupport on why "nothing" is done about it.
Comment by PlacidVlad at 01/09/2021 at 17:44 UTC
23 upvotes, 4 direct replies
We have seen a massive increase in Ivemectin requests where I am at, to the point that the medical society I'm apart of had an emergency conference last night to talk about ways to combat misinformation and disinformation. I hope that subs such are /r/nonewnormal are banned more quickly in the future.
Comment by DragonPup at 01/09/2021 at 17:59 UTC*
9 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Quarantine 54 additional COVID denial subreddits under Rule 1
It speaks to a **much** larger problem that there were 55 subreddits (counting NNN) spreading this that Reddit was aware of and took no action to until now. To be frank, without the subreddit blackout in reaction to spez's disastrous post last week I don't believe Reddit would have acted today. Which is another big problem; It's *very* hard to trust Reddit to do the right thing on their own.
Comment by throwaway_dontmindme at 01/09/2021 at 18:17 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
How about addressing the disinformation problem on your platform instead of blaming it on brigading?
Comment by koavf at 01/09/2021 at 20:51 UTC*
20 upvotes, 5 direct replies
It is not hard to find more of these to ban using semi-automated means. E.g. see what /u/polymath22 "admins":
Comment by RallyX26 at 01/09/2021 at 17:51 UTC
29 upvotes, 2 direct replies
When can we expect our apology from u/spez?
Comment by shiruken at 01/09/2021 at 17:40 UTC*
7 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Good. I'm particularly interested to see what this looks like since most reports on brigading are currently met with "we don't see anything on our end."
Build a new reporting feature for moderators to allow them to better provide us signal when they see community interference. It will take us a few days to get this built, and we will subsequently evaluate the usefulness of this feature.
Comment by [deleted] at 01/09/2021 at 17:49 UTC
20 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
