-49 upvotes, 5 direct replies (showing 5)
View submission: John Cage 4’33
IMO it's pretentious in the exact same way that taping a banana to a wall and calling it art is pretentious. It's taking something that is obviously not art, and then saying "now it is art because I say so."
Comment by someoneshoot at 02/02/2025 at 15:15 UTC
29 upvotes, 1 direct replies
But he has never called it high art. If he went around, jerking off how good he is then I would get your point. Art is supposed to create discussion, whether that’s negative or positive. No matter how “shitty” it is, if it gets people talking, it’s done its job. That’s what makes art difficult to put in a box and define. I also think the banana stunt was stupid, I’ll readily say it but at the same time I do also think it accomplished what it set out to do. How many articles came out of that? How many conversations?
Comment by Slashfyre at 02/02/2025 at 15:20 UTC
15 upvotes, 1 direct replies
You say it’s pretentious because it’s obviously not art, but I would argue that it forces the audience to ask themselves “What exactly is art?” A piece that’s just silence doesn’t seem like music at all, but what if it were performed outside in a park, surrounded by bird song and the sound of the wind rustling the trees? What if it’s performed in the middle of the city with the hustle and bustle of people going about their daily lives, maybe the sounds of the subway going by? Those sounds aren’t music per se because they weren’t intentionally created to be music, but those sounds have been used in music ranging from composers recreating birdsong in flute parts to electronic musicians using found sounds and samples.
When it comes to more experimental music, it often gets dismissed by the most pretentious people because it’s “just noise”. But I think 4’33” makes the point that music is nothing but noise, we just happened to come up with a ton of rules about how that noise should sound. IMO, Cage was challenging the classical music world (perhaps the largest source of pretentiousness in music) to broaden their horizons and accept music for what it is, beautiful noise.
Comment by Prophet_Of_Helix at 02/02/2025 at 15:21 UTC
10 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Nah, I disagree here. Cage had a clear intent with 4’33” that isn’t there with the banana.
Yes, I know the artist said the intent is that anything can be art, but there’s an infinite number of ways to do that that are far more interesting than a banana taped to a wall. What’s telling is that the artist didn’t have a reason for WHY the banana could be art. THAT would’ve been potentially interesting. But literally taking a banana to a wall and mumbling something about the commodification of art is the pinnacle of pretentiousness.
On the other hand, there is purpose behind 4’33”. As the poster above you noted, a large part of it was mocking the pretentiousness of the classic music scene, where there was an overwhelming sentiment that orchestral music was proper music and better than more colloquial music. Which is obviously ridiculous, there is nothing inherently better about prchestral music played in a theater vs a modern concert with tons of ambient noise vs a guy in the local pub singing while strumming on a guitar. So one part of the piece is having the audience recognize there is always other noise, environmental sound, ambience, and it doesn’t take away from the music. Theres no single proper way to experience music.
It’s also a study in musical negative space, or rather, trying to have the audience actually pay attention to their surroundings. Unlike the banana, which doesn’t try and do anything, 4’33” would’ve been played at an actual concert venue. You would gone and sat in an auditorium, expecting to hear classical music. And a performer would’ve come out, sat down at the piano, and then done nothing for the duration. The idea is that you are in this formal listening space, but what you are actually listening to is the “music” of the environment. You’re sitting in this space with the intent of giving your entire attention to the stage, and now you’re forced to contend with silence while also contending with the ettique of the music hall/theater, which is that it wouldn’t be appropriate to start talking to your neighbor or getting up and moving around like you might at a pub if someone starting playing a song you didn’t care for. So you sit and you listen. You listen to the sounds that are always around you all the time.
So yeah. It’s fine if you don’t like it, or the idea of it. No sane person is loading up 4’33” on their phone to jam too while sitting at home.
But it does absolutely have specific intent and purpose, moreso than the banana.
Comment by maud_brijeulin at 02/02/2025 at 15:17 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Not really. There's more to it. Being able to kick both tradition and modern additions (like 12-tone music) as well as opening new ways, redefining what music was and could be all at the same time was really gutsy especially coming from one person. Cage still amazes me the way he could both be provocative and iconoclastic (Dada had paved the way for that, and he paved the way for Fluxus) as well as dead serious at the same time.
Taping a banana to a wall is a bit late to the game. It's basically a ready made. I'd rather compare Cage to Duchamp (they were friends and collaborators too)
Comment by 2347564 at 02/02/2025 at 16:28 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Marcel Duchamp would like a word with you