860 upvotes, 7 direct replies (showing 7)
View submission: How Men Become Aziz Ansari
I remember hearing about this at the time, and thinking that it just sounded like a bad date -- this lady did a much better job than the media at the time of actually telling the story of what happened.
I'm a bisexual man, I've had this sort of encounter myself (generally with other men). It really feels terrible in the moment and afterward, and I think one of the foundational issues is that our culture doesn't have the language to discuss what it is, and why it feels so bad.
We have this binary ... "Consensual", eliciting the idea that it is perfectly consensual, and "rape", which brings to mind drugging someone or physically raping them. Nothing in between, no real language to describe that coercive experience. It shows you what we've valued as a culture ... Imagine if we had no word for something that is in between "friendship" and "murder".
Comment by re_Claire at 17/02/2025 at 19:23 UTC*
254 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Bisexual woman here - completely agree with the fact that we don’t have the tools to discuss it well. It’s a massive issue really because I’ve been both raped and in the same situation as described as how Aziz behaved and whilst people are more willing to talk about rape they don’t want to talk about the greyer areas.
Comment by Select_Frame1972 at 18/02/2025 at 14:02 UTC
20 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I really think that's one of the biggest problems regarding semantics and classification.
What I think is that many people are afraid to define the middle ground as something due to a fear of it being downplayed and because of it they put all under same name, aka sexual assault or non-assault, thus we get a polarised community. Even for a caused death we have classification (manslaughter, murder, etc), but not much so for sexual assaults.
I really do think it's wrong, these things should have a name and it's own classification. Everyone in a community will agree that sexual assault is not okay, but not everyone will agree what the sexual assault is.
Comment by lolexecs at 17/02/2025 at 16:11 UTC*
114 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I'm a bisexual man, I've had this sort of encounter myself (generally with other men). It really feels terrible in the moment and afterward, and I think one of the foundational issues is that our culture doesn't have the language to discuss what it is, and why it feels so bad.
Did it feel bad because you didn't want it?
I think when we think about consent there are differences between Hell yeah!, Okay, and No.
Comment by bamfbanki at 18/02/2025 at 02:10 UTC
20 upvotes, 0 direct replies
In Kink subcultures, we also talk about "Consent Injuries" as a space between Consensual and Consent Violations. Usually, it's when someone doesn't realize there's a line they don't want to cross, and it ends up crossed during a scene; sometimes it happens when one party doesn't communicate their needs or boundaries clearly enough, and they end up crossed, or when someone misunderstands where the line is.
I think *this* framework is a helpful place to begin, but I also think it doesn't cover behavior like Aziz exhibited- he clearly engaged in behavior I would call a Consent Violation. But that level of nuance is something important to think about.
I have an ex who at one point during our relationship, hit me during an argument. However, they weren't abusive; they had a mental health collapse and smacked me when I was moving to step out of their apartment for a little bit and de-escalate the argument we were having. This was a huge trauma trigger for me, and my ex knew that, and I spent an hour crying afterwards. They apologized, but it severely rocked my ability to trust that I'd be safe around them when they had mental health spirals, and eventually led to me cutting them completely out of my life.
How do you handle this situation? What does restitution and accountability look like? How do you have these discussions in complicated situations? Our societal understanding of violence like this or like Aziz committed (because coercive behavior on dates is Violent) is messy, and based around a carceral and punitive idea of justice, instead of doing what the victim actually wants and needs for their safety. Shit is frustrating, and it's why I believe in Restorative justice first.
Comment by Personage1 at 19/02/2025 at 22:31 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Something I've been meaning to do for a while is write up my own #metoo story....about the two times that I unambiguously fucked up with consent. And yeah, it's tough to know how to talk about it, because what I did absolutely fits the definition of sexual assault, but I think in both cases if the other person even remembers it, they would instantly say my apology (and determination to never do that again) was the extent of what I needed to do.
So on one hand I don't want to underplay it, but on the other it's not like I think I escaped justice or anything.
and I know I'll get asked so rather than being coy....
First story was I was making out with someone. She made it absolutely clear we were going to leave our clothes on, and she didn't want me to touch her breasts even over the clothing. At one point I convinced myself it would be "funny" to poke her breast "as a joke." She pulled back immediately and called me out on it, and I had to do some introspection about how even I was capable of lying to myself in the same way that could ultimately lead to rape.
The second story was I had a house party and was really drunk. Someone I had had a crush on for a while ended up lying on my bed to pass out as I was getting ready to sleep, and I remember saying to her something about me taking it that she wanted to cuddle. I ended up feeling her up under her shirt to her breasts before realizing she was definitely passed out, stopped, and went to sleep myself. Told her about it in the morning with a lot of apologies. Once again had a lot of introspection to do, as well as setting boundaries with myself with alcohol.
Comment by softnmushy at 17/02/2025 at 16:59 UTC
82 upvotes, 4 direct replies
My wife and I read the accusers story and were convinced it was just a really bad date. It was the medias fault for making it bigger than it was.
The original story was written by the accuser. So that is the most extreme view of it that is credible. Anyone else is just making stuff up.
One key part of the story is that she went back to his apartment and took off her clothes pretty early on. So most of the story is about them making out with her naked but her not wanting to have sex yet.
She gives a lot of mixed signals and he clearly just wants to have sex. He keeps trying to escalate and she tries keep things from going to sex, but she doesn’t really shut down his advances. She says no but then she continues fooling around while naked. They both show horrible communication skills.
Comment by indigo_pirate at 18/02/2025 at 01:18 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Coercion, pressure, oblige , Lots of reasonable words