https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalWhatIf/comments/1j23vtu/the_third_reich_never_came_into_power/
created by villianrules on 02/03/2025 at 22:50 UTC
9 upvotes, 15 top-level comments (showing 15)
Besides The Holocaust not happening, what are the other effects?
Comment by TimSEsq at 02/03/2025 at 23:31 UTC
7 upvotes, 2 direct replies
There are basically two theories. The first is that without AH and the Nazis, WW II doesn't happen.
The second theory is that WW II is essentially a continuation of WW I. Germany had a plausible chance of dominating continental Europe the way Napoleon tried with France, Japan tried with the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, and the US succeeded with North America.
Under that theory, Germany wasn't going to stop trying until geopolitics changed. If Nazis don't take power, some other government would have taken power with similar geopolitical goals. Those goals inherently lead to another great war in Europe.
Comment by Dazzling-Climate-318 at 03/03/2025 at 05:59 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
My point of departure is the Brownshirts get word of the intent of Hitler to murder them and are prepared to and do fight back, specifically Rohm. They outnumbered Hitlers SS and the result being a dead Hitler, Goering and Himmler as well as other Nationalists members who sided with Hitler. The Socialist wing comes to for and gains control. This still puts them in conflict with the Moscow oriented Communists, but perhaps not at all times and in all things, more rivals than enemies. The leader of the Socialist wing, Gregor Strasser was known for being much more practical and clear headed than Hitler and not actually anti-Semitic, though definitely opposed to all wealthy individuals, which in some cases did include Jewish persons. This might have resulted in another German Civil War between the Socialists and those allied with the. established order, with the Army taking the side of the wealthy establishment. Assuming the National Socialist Workers Party wins, Germany could well have allied itself with the USSR. And so no German backing of Franco and possibly a war with Italy and Mussolini, unless Mussolini flip flops and becomes a Socialist again.
And so who is on which side is uncertain. Poland could well be largely ignored, especially if they made major concessions as they faced two allied nations on either side pressuring them.
If however Germany comes out of its civil war stronger and with a new military and no SS, no race based persecution, etc. whoever it fights on a transnational war would have it rough. The NAZIS rearmed Germany, but did it badly. They lavished too much money on party faithful and their businesses and developed too many different weapons, many at too high a cost per weapon and to add insult to this they used a single source for their engine development (Maybach) which resulted in there engines for tanks and armored fighting vehicles not meeting either the time tables for development needed, nor actually getting powerful enough engines that didn’t break down. If instead they had developed a Soviet style design studio based system they would have had fewer different weapons, but they would have had more of them, they would have worked and been produced at a lower cost and more quickly.
Just imagine, Germany attacking France with the equivalent of T-34 tanks, MG-44s and some type of selective fire rifle, backed by versatile fighter bombers. France would have crumbled even faster than it did and there would have been no British evacuation at Dunkirk. Then instead of an attack on the USSR, it’s on Italy. Finland gets no help from Germany and fully loses its war against the USSR and Germany captures Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Also if the Spanish Republic has held on long enough, the Italians helping Franco would have to pull out to try to defend Italy and once France and Italy are defeated, Franco’s days would be numbered. I expect the USSR with a friendly Germany on the other side of a servile but unoccupied Poland (it acting as a convenient buffer) would take most of Eastern Europe, and Greece, possibly Turkey as well with the result being that for a little while Greece and Turkey might find themselves as allies of each other. This would then put the Mediterranean in play. Basically Britain would be in a terrible mess. And without Hitler and Goering, Strasser likely would not try for the Blitz. Instead he might well try to negotiate for a truce and the return of the British forces captured in France in exchange for a free hand in the former French and Italian colonies which Germany wants to set up on their Socialist model. The war ends in Europe with Britain handing over Gibraltar to the Spanish who agree to German troops occupying the intact and un attacked facilities and German control of all of North Africa up to Egypt and then on the other side, including Palestine where Germany establishes bases and many German Jews migrate to under a friendly flag. The Arabs of course feel betrayed and fight back and end up being forced to leave, either to Egypt or possibly Turkey, some maybe going to Jordan or even the Arabian peninsula. While this would marginalize Great Britain in the Mediterranean, it would allow them to continue to control the Suez Canal and keep the Germans and the Soviets away from India and South Africa.
The USSR only slightly busy in the west, after taking Eastern Europe, south of Poland and the eastern Mediterranean would turn its interests Eastwards and its old foe the Japanese.
Britain might well feel obliged to allow the Soviet and German fleets transit the canal as part of the peace treaty which let them keep most of their Poland get back their captured forces, especially as it would be pointed out that the Canal could be seized almost anytime by a joint Soviet/German effort.
So German forces recently reinforced from Europe might strike out from Hanoi harbor to capture Taiwan from the Japanese while Soviet troops roll southwards into Korea and Manchuria.
The question finally comes down to what would the U.S. do? Would they help the Japanese who had been fighting a protracted war against China, a nation which has been courting U.S. assistance, or would they go in for the kill on Japan. I am assuming that as Japan never occupied Vietnam and Germany did after defeating the French who were backers of China they never attacked the U.S. to try to get the Dutch East Indies which were firmly in German hands.
In any case Japan would fall eventually. A new Socialist government would be installed there and things would get interesting after that.
I suspect that without being attacked the U.S. would stay out of this war completely. The hope being that the Socialists and the Communists eventually would turn on each other.
Britain would survive this war in better shape having fought a shorter war that damaged the UK much less and would have suffered many fewer casualties. The result being they would try to hold on to India longer, possibly by compromising and accommodating more self government on a local level.
France, well no Vichy government, and no chance at revenge after the war. Instead a permanently partially occupied status, with a semiautonomous Socialist government modeled after Germany’s eventually SS almost fully independent in about 20 years and an ally when Germany goes to war against the USSR.
This Germany doesn’t start working on an A-bomb, so the U.S. doesn’t either and subsequently the USSR, France and the UK don’t for a long time.
Comment by Prometheus-is-vulcan at 02/03/2025 at 23:06 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Whats the point of divergence? What event?
The election crisis of 1933? A Communist President instead of Hindenburg?
Its hard to say anything without any details.
Comment by dracojohn at 02/03/2025 at 23:59 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
If you just nudge things so the Nazi's don't get power then it would be the communists, Poland still gets split between the Germans and soviets but they probably won't turn on each other.
The teams change tho since France had alot of communists it may trigger a revolution and they could join Germany but are definitely not going to be declaring war on them. Britain would probably try to ally with Japan to safeguard India and other Asian colonies while putting a threat on Russia's southern border, this could be fun because the price would probably be oil and that could upset America.
If the war started the UK is basically screwed unless it launched a huge preemptive attack that knocked the French navy and airforce out with little loss ( do able but unlikely). Britain would need to get Japan into the war fast to distract Russia and protect the middle east. They would also need to mobilise its none white colonies, which would be very difficult and require huge propaganda to motivate the population.
There is no pearl harbour and the US didn't see communists are the threat Britain did so maybe slow to act or sit the war out
Comment by nowthatswhat at 03/03/2025 at 00:50 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Germany would have been communist and we probably would have had to nuke Germany and russia, assuming they didn’t get to it first, which is a real possibility in this scenario. Probably even more people die through war and starvation.
Comment by Own_Philosopher_1940 at 03/03/2025 at 00:53 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Then something else happens. Fascism was pretty popular in Europe during the 1930s in every country.
Comment by Character-Pin8704 at 03/03/2025 at 01:04 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
The Spanish Civil War ends in Communist victory. France panics and goes fascist under someone like (or probably just) Pierre Petain as a response to communism. Which is basically what it did once Hitler invaded anyways and tracks with DeGaule afterwards. Europe descends into a war over the spread of Communism instead of Fascism. Stalin probably eventually rolls into Germany after Poland, allied with German communists and promising to throw off the shackles of the western powers. Que WW2 with England/France/USA vs. The Reds.
Comment by AndrewGeezer at 03/03/2025 at 02:07 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Soviets attack Europe and start WW2. Everyone forgets that they participated in the invasion of Poland…
Comment by New-Patient-101 at 03/03/2025 at 02:30 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
A lot of technology would not have come alive. The jet engines, computers, radar, the microwave. Many others but those are a few that come to mind. Maybe they would have been invented later in life 🤷.
Comment by theredditor58 at 02/03/2025 at 23:51 UTC
4 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Either Communists seize power and Germany and USSR alliance or another political party that is right wing seizes power more or less extreme than the Nazis ww2 maybe still occur but differently depending on the scenario.
Comment by BestElephant4331 at 03/03/2025 at 02:02 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I feel like we may have had to deal with a different fascist dictator. I feel the wide acceptance of the stabbed in the back theory and the poor performance of the Ebert government (which never had a chance) would have prevented a take over from the left. Most Germans did not believe they lost WWI. They believed to Socialist Workers Party under Ebert sold them out. Given the anti- semitism in Europe I don't know if the Jews would have been spared. We could have ended up with a military General from the German old order taking over who would have made far better military decisions than Hitler.
Comment by Fit-Capital1526 at 03/03/2025 at 04:09 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Former crown prince Wilhelm runs for the presidency in 1932 and wins. Getting unanimous support from the German Conservatives and costing the Nazis the political support he provided OTL
That leads to a successful grand coalition excluding the Nazis and Communists in the 1930s
Prince Wilhelm’s presidency wouldn’t be much different to Hindenburgs OTL rule. Acting within the constitution to enact policies of the government, but also heavily relying on the executive powers of the role
This causes him to have opposition, but also leads to the monarchists gaining a lot more legitimacy. Prince Wilhelm’s presidency. It also leads to the further moderation of the DNVP who are far more willing to now actively work with the institutions of the Republic
That leads to erosion of the Nazi parties power and the eventual elimination of the party. With a second Nazi coup attempt happening at this time and being suppressed
The death of Kaiser Wilhelm II in the 1941 provides the opportunity to restore the monarchy and with the support of the government and president. The German empire is restored
The restoration of the monarchy would coincide with the end of the great depression and widely be seen as the reason for it ending in Germany at the time
However, a bigger reason would actually be the repairing of Germanys relations with Eastern Europe. Namely the Baltics, Finland and Romania who want German support in a hypothetical conflict with the USSR
Germany would also be in favour of politically supporting German minorities in the east. Leading to political clashes with Poland over the status of the Free City of Danzig and close ties to Czechoslovakia (whose German minority was cooperating and working with the government at the time) as well
Anschluss would probably also be achieved in the aftermath of the Nazi party being purged
Eastern Europe doesn’t stay stable
All happening under the shadow of the USSR
Comment by Abject-Investment-42 at 03/03/2025 at 11:18 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It depends very much on HOW it comes to this.
Communist revolution in Germany? Hitler falling down the stairs in 1918? Some third party candidate nominated by Hindenburg instead of Hitler in 1933? Alien intervention?
WHY third Reich necer comes into power is far more important to talk about "other effects" than just it not happening.
Comment by Reasonable_Pay4096 at 03/03/2025 at 13:16 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
A LOT of technological advances don't happen. Not just nukes, but also things like widespread airplanes, jet engines, rockets, radar...penicillin only came into wide use during WW2.
And the running of the Torch for the Olympics, televising the Olympics, grand ceremonies for the Olympics...all of those debuted in the 1936 Berlin Games
Comment by Inside-External-8649 at 03/03/2025 at 05:03 UTC
0 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It depends on what you mean by “not coming to power”. Are they crushed, or not competitive enough?
Germany would collapse, probably into multiple states. The rest of Europe would probably intervene and try to fix Germany, as an excuse for more reparations.
Italy and Soviet would delay their ambitions until the late 40’s. Italy is easy to crush, but the Soviet Union is tricky.