Is nirvana a permanent state?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1iuozm8/is_nirvana_a_permanent_state/

created by WestProcess6931 on 21/02/2025 at 11:44 UTC*

45 upvotes, 28 top-level comments (showing 25)

If so, what makes Nirvana permanent? If Nirvana a understanding about impermanace, what makes it permanent?

Please explain if I'm wrong. Sending you metta 🪷

Comments

Comment by numbersev at 21/02/2025 at 12:38 UTC

72 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Nirvana is the unconditioned reality. Meaning it doesn't arise, nor is it dependent on any other requisite causes or conditions. It doesn't change nor cease. It always is. This is why it's called 'awakening'. It's as if it's buried deep within each individual, but is blocked by the defilements of the mind, such as ignorance and craving.

According to the doctrine of Dependent Origination, there is the arising of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. Think of it like the arising of a problem, then the cessation of said problem. You are not annihilated, dukkha is.

Comment by SamtenLhari3 at 21/02/2025 at 11:57 UTC

71 upvotes, 3 direct replies

Nirvana is not a state. It is simply seeing clearly. It is like being afraid of the dark and then not being afraid.

It is permanent in the sense that, once seen, it can’t be unseen.

Comment by Adept-Engine5606 at 21/02/2025 at 13:06 UTC

58 upvotes, 3 direct replies

Nirvana is not permanent, because permanence belongs to time. Nirvana is beyond time. The moment you ask whether it is permanent, you have already misunderstood. It is neither permanent nor impermanent—it simply is. And in that isness, all seeking disappears, all suffering dissolves. Nirvana is not something you achieve; it is when the one who is achieving disappears.

Comment by GrampaMoses at 21/02/2025 at 13:35 UTC

18 upvotes, 3 direct replies

I'm going to offer a different answer than everyone here, but understand it is only semantics and based on the Dzogchen teachings I have received.

There is only the primordial ground of all, with two paths (or two fruitions). The path of dilution and self grasping leads to samsara (suffering). The path of compassion and skillful means leads to nirvana (bliss).

Samsara and nirvana are both subject to conditions which give rise to these experiences and they are not permanent states. Enlightenment is going beyond samsara and nirvana.

I am unable to elaborate further on this last point, but will end with a quote from the Buddha Shakyamuni Sadhana, "Simply think of him and he grants the glory of the highest bliss: Liberation from samsara and nirvana, the two extremes"

Comment by Gawain11 at 21/02/2025 at 12:04 UTC

8 upvotes, 0 direct replies

it isn't a "state" as states can be entered and left. Rather it is the removal of all "states", that's what makes it permanent.

Comment by helikophis at 21/02/2025 at 14:41 UTC

6 upvotes, 1 direct replies

It's misleading to call it a "permanent state". Once the constituents that a phenomenon is formed from separate, that same phenomenon never occurs again, but it would seem strange to call the non-existence of that phenomenon a "permanent state". It's the same with the three poisons of ignorance, greed, and hatred. Once those poisons have been eradicated through perfect awakening, they never arise again - but it would be a bit odd to call this a "permanent state". It's merely the absence of a temporary phenomenon. The fact that this absence has been given a name causes us to reify it as a "thing". But it is not a "thing".

Comment by Olderandolderagain at 21/02/2025 at 14:17 UTC

5 upvotes, 0 direct replies

I like to think about nirvana as it’s described in the lotus sutra. It is described as a phantom city. A resting point. I find this helpful in my day to day life to free myself from suffering.

Comment by krodha at 21/02/2025 at 20:59 UTC

4 upvotes, 0 direct replies

One of the characteristics of nirvana is that it is "permanent" because it is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Since there is no possibility of cause for "re-arising" nirvana is said to be "permanent".

Buddhahood is irreversible and permanent. Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."

For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

> *You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [gnosis] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.*

He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:

> *Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.*

and from Ācārya Malcolm:

> *Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.*

Comment by [deleted] at 21/02/2025 at 11:54 UTC*

13 upvotes, 1 direct replies

[deleted]

Comment by prepping4zombies at 21/02/2025 at 14:50 UTC

6 upvotes, 0 direct replies

In this thread: A bunch of different views and definitions of what nirvana is, adding to OP's confusion.

Comment by ahmshy at 21/02/2025 at 17:00 UTC*

3 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Not a state or heaven or place, but it’s the term we use for the cessation of ignorance and delusion. Reality. 🪞

What is the point of it? It has no point. It just is. Reality. You awaken to it.

Whether we aim for awakening to Nibbana or not is of no consequence to the Cessation of delusion itself. It is what it is what it is. “So why not aim for it?” 🙂

Sending Metta, to you and to us all 🙏🪷💎💎💎

Comment by Ariyas108 at 21/02/2025 at 20:52 UTC

3 upvotes, 0 direct replies

What makes Nirvana permanent is the removal of ignorance. Once ignorance is removed, it doesn’t just come back. Once it’s gone, it’s gone for good.

Comment by InsightAndEnergy at 21/02/2025 at 21:20 UTC

3 upvotes, 0 direct replies

May I say, analysis about whether nirvana is permanent is somewhat extraneous. Without knowing you, may I suggest trying to explore the essence of who you are, developing both wisdom and compassion, while learning how to harmonize with and be helpful to others. Huineng also focused on this approach.

I had to learn this the hard way, through errors and life experience, but the lesson really sticks with me as a result. Zen teachers were telling me this all along, but gradually I have been able to hear and see the reality. Do that which is good, avoid doing harm, and purify the mind.

Comment by AlexCoventry at 21/02/2025 at 17:12 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

**The question sometimes arises:**[1] In teaching an unchanging unbinding, isn’t the Canon itself guilty of engaging in eternalism? Isn’t it espousing a pernicious wrong view? The answer is No, and here again there are both formal and strategic reasons for why not.

1: https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/uncollected/NibbanaDescription.html

The formal reason is that eternity is a function of time—a long, unending time. Unbinding, however, lies outside of the confines of space and time entirely, and so the adjective “eternal” doesn’t apply.

The strategic reason is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea that something is unchanging. The problem with the wrong view of eternalism is *what,* precisely, it identifies as unchanging. All of the eternalist views quoted in the Canon—in DN 1[2] and SN 22:81[3]—posit only two things as eternal: an eternal world and/or an eternal self. For the purpose of putting an end to suffering, though, the cosmos and all assumptions of self have to be seen as fabricated, dependently co-arisen phenomena. Only then can any passion for them be abandoned. To say that they are unchanging and eternal would be to say that they are unfabricated. The perceptions of inconstancy and stress would not apply to them, and so there would be no reason to develop dispassion for them. This would stand in the way of getting beyond them to attain the truly unfabricated goal of unbinding. This is another reason why these eternalist views are pernicious. Unbinding, however, is neither a self nor a world. Thus a belief that unbinding is unchanging would not get in the way of the path. In fact, as we have seen, it’s necessary to perceive unbinding as unchanging in order to be motivated to give up changing pleasures for its sake, and to recognize it when it is attained.

2: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN01.html

3: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_81.html

Comment by Astalon18 at 21/02/2025 at 18:26 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Yes pragmatically, but be careful of the idea of permanent. Permanence means time. Nirvana is Timeless. Therefore it is not permanent but also not impermanent ( but effectively is ). It is Unconditioned.

Comment by 3initiates at 22/02/2025 at 02:04 UTC

2 upvotes, 0 direct replies

In Buddhism, nirvana is considered a permanent state, but it’s important to understand what that really means. Nirvana is the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice, representing the end of suffering, desire, and attachment, as well as the cessation of the cycle of rebirth (samsara). When someone reaches nirvana, they are liberated from the causes of suffering, which are tied to ignorance, craving, and aversion.

The permanence of nirvana lies in its nature as a state beyond the fluctuations of the material world. Once attained, nirvana is not subject to change or decay because it represents the extinguishing of the “self” or ego, and the end of all forms of attachment. Unlike worldly experiences, which are impermanent and influenced by external conditions, nirvana is seen as transcendent and unconditioned, free from the cycles of birth, death, and rebirth.

However, it’s important to note that nirvana isn’t viewed as a “place” or “thing” you can grasp. It’s a state of being—complete peace and freedom from suffering—so it’s “permanent” in the sense that it is unchanging once realized. But it doesn’t involve an ongoing personal experience in the same way we think of permanent states in the physical world. It’s beyond concepts of time and individuality. So, it’s permanent in a spiritual sense, but not permanent in a materialistic or egoic sense.

Comment by [deleted] at 21/02/2025 at 15:47 UTC

1 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Experiences of true clarity fade over time like a dream. The longer it's been the harder to recall clearly. This is why we practice.

Comment by Backtothecum4160 at 21/02/2025 at 12:02 UTC

-1 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Yes

Comment by AcanthisittaNo6653 at 21/02/2025 at 15:17 UTC

0 upvotes, 0 direct replies

If you are looking for a permanent state to be in, be present for this moment.

Comment by humhjm at 21/02/2025 at 16:47 UTC

0 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Yes. It is permanent. Something has to be permanent. Guess what? It’s the state of no suffering.