https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1igz4rh/i_have_extreme_difficulties_understanding_why/
created by hau4300 on 03/02/2025 at 20:30 UTC
21 upvotes, 12 top-level comments (showing 12)
One of the most celebrated Scripture in Mahayana Buddhism Diamond Sutra, aka Vajracchedika Prajnaparamita Sutra says the following:
“And how so? Because, Subhuti, these fearless bodhisattvas do not create the perception of a self. Nor do they create the perception of a being, a life, or a soul. Nor, Subhuti, do these fearless bodhisattvas create the perception of a dharma, much less the perception of no dharma. Subhuti, they do not create a perception nor no perception. “And why not? Because, Subhuti, if these fearless bodhisattvas created the perception of a dharma, they would be attached to a self, a being, a life, and a soul. Likewise, if they created the perception of no dharma, they would be attached to a self, a being, a life, and a soul. “And why not? Because surely, Subhuti, fearless bodhisattvas do not cling to a dharma, much less to no dharma. This is the meaning behind the Tathagata’s saying, ‘A dharma teaching is like a raft. If you should let go of dharmas, how much more so no dharmas.’”
My understanding is that dharma is the way and is the nature of reality. The nature of reality neither exists, nor non-exists, in human sense.
Amitayurdhyana Sutra says the following:
Then the World-Honored One said to Vaidehi, "Do you know that Amitayus is not far away? Fix your thoughts upon and contemplate that Buddha-land, then you will accomplish the pure acts. I shall describe it to you in detail with various illustrations, so that all ordinary people in the future who wish to practice the pure karma may also be born in that Western Land of Utmost Bliss. Whoever wishes to be born there should practice three acts of merit: first, caring for one's parents, attending to one's teachers and elders, compassionately refraining from killing, and doing the ten good deeds; second, taking the three refuges, keeping the various precepts and refraining from breaking the rules of conduct; and third, awakening aspiration for Enlightenment, believing deeply in the law of causality, chanting the Mahayana sutras and encouraging people to follow their teachings. These three are called the pure karma." The Buddha further said to Vaidehi, "Do you know that these three acts are the pure karma practiced by all the Buddhas of the past, present and future as the right cause of Enlightenment?" Vaidehi asks how to visualize the Pure Land
The Buddha said to Ananda and Vaidehi, "Listen carefully, listen carefully and ponder deeply. I, the Tathagata, shall discourse on pure karma for the sake of all sentient beings of the future who are afflicted by the enemy, evil passions. It is very good, Vaidehi, that you have willingly asked me about this. Ananda, you must receive and keep the Buddha's words and widely proclaim them to the multitude of beings. I, the Tathagata, shall now teach you, Vaidehi, and all sentient beings of the future how to visualize the Western Land of Utmost Bliss. By the power of the Buddha all will be able to see the Pure Land as clearly as if they were looking at their own reflections in a bright mirror. Seeing the utmost beauty and bliss of that land, they will rejoice and immediately attain the insight into the non-arising of all dharmas." The Buddha said to Vaidehi, "You are an unenlightened, and so your spiritual powers are weak and obscured. Since you have not yet attained the divine eye, you cannot see that which is distant. But the Buddhas, Tathagatas, have special ways to enable you to see afar." Vaidehi said to the Buddha, "World-Honored One, through the Buddha's power, even I have now been able to see that land. But after the Buddha's passing, sentient beings will become defiled and evil, and be oppressed by the five kinds of suffering. How then will those beings be able to see the Land of Utmost Bliss of Amitayus?"
Here, Buddha is trying to "describe" what the nature of reality is. That is, it is a place called the "pure land of bliss". Any sentient being who practices "pure karma" will "visualize" the pure land and "see" the beauty and bliss of that land. Personally, I have never ever even attempted to search for joy and happiness. I believe the right attitude is to first give up your thoughts of "gaining happiness". Going to or visualizing a place called "pure land of bliss" has never been my reason of trying to understand Buddha's teaching. My only goal is to understand the true nature of reality.
Then it continues as if Buddha has "some special ways to see afar" that can be taught to any sentient being. And then it continues to talk about the "contemplation" of the setting sun, water, the ground, objects, lotus thrones,... as if they are "separable" individual objects/concepts. All the so-called objects are nothing more than some human created concepts that are based on our perceptions and observations using our senses as a result of millions of years of evolution and adaption. My understanding is that "in reality", nothing can be "separated" from everything else. Visualizing our reality as consisting of a "collection" of many "different" individually separable objects is exactly the reason we fail to understand reality. Isn't it vikalpa of some sort?
Can anyone enlighten me? Any thoughts?
Comment by SolipsistBodhisattva at 03/02/2025 at 22:10 UTC*
28 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Your misunderstanding is in thinking that the pure land is ultimate reality or ultimate truth (paramarthasatya). It is in fact still a conventional truth, albeit a very subtle and important conventional truth created as a skillful means by the Buddha. But in all pure land traditions, the pure land with its forms like trees and lakes and so on is never considered to be the ultimate Dharmakaya.
Also, all the forms in the pure land are not separate objects that truly exist, they are simply manifestations of the Buddha's vow power or "other power"[1]. As such, it's not like the pure land is some different thing apart from the Buddha's own body and mind.
1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_power
Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu both taught the pure land methods, hence they are known as patriarchs in pure land Buddhism. If they taught this Dharma door then they clearly did not see any conflict between it and the Prajñaparamita teachings. Likewise the Dazhidulun (Great Prajñaparamita Treatise), the earliest existing commentary on the Prajñaparamita sutras, also extensively discusses pure lands / buddhafields.
There is no contradiction.
Comment by krodha at 03/02/2025 at 23:06 UTC
13 upvotes, 0 direct replies
In the Mahāyāna, the idea of a so-called "pureland" has different definitions based on different contexts. Overall, the term “Pure land” is a gloss of “kṣetra” it is the field of activity of a specific Buddha or bodhisattva, a *buddhakṣetra.* There can be both pure and impure kṣetras, and for that reason, rather than “pureland,” it is actually more accurate to translate kṣetra as “buddhafield.”
The premise is that the perception of pure and impure buddhafields actually reflects whether we as practitioners have cognitive obscurations or not. Buddha’s and awakened āryas see pure buddhafields because they do not have these obscurations. We sentient beings perceive this sahalōka as an impure realm because of our obscurations. This is Buddha Śākyamuni’s buddhafield, we just perceive it as samsāra.
The *Vimalakīrtinirdeśa* says:
> *The purity of his [a bodhisattva's] buddhafield reflects the purity of living beings; the purity of the living beings reflects the purity of his gnosis (jñāna); the purity of his gnosis reflects the purity of his doctrine; the purity of his doctrine reflects the purity of his transcendental practice; and the purity of his transcendental practice reflects the purity of his own mind.*
All buddhafields are innately pure. If a buddhafield is perceived as impure it is because one’s mind is burdened by impurities, specifically ignorance (avidyā) as a knowledge obscuration which prevents you from seeing the innate purity of all phenomena.
The *Dharmarāja Sūtra* states:
> *The Bhagavan said to the bodhisattva Many Desires, “Many Desires, before, that was was tainted. Now it is clean, pure, very pure. The mind is one thing, nondual, without any other properties. Since that mind is pure, all phenomena become pure.*
> *Son of a good family, for example, a tree is cut down at the root, not at the branches and leaves. Likewise, if the mind is realized, it is equivalent with cutting all phenomena at the root. Since the mind is pure, all phenomena will be pure.���*
What then is the factor that distinguishes pure from impure perception? It is emptiness, śūnyatā. If you realize emptiness and rest in awakened equipoise, then you realize that phenomena have been pure, luminous, unafflicted and unconditioned from the very beginning. That means you are seeing the pure dharmatā of phenomena, you are directly knowing the pure buddhafield. You see this impure sahalōkadhātu really is the pure buddhafield, akaniṣṭha ghanavyūha.
Again, from the *Vimalakīrtinirdeśa:*
> *Thereupon, magically influenced by the Buddha, the venerable Śāriputra had this thought: “If the buddhafield is pure only to the extent that the mind of the bodhisattva is pure, then, when Śākyamuni Buddha was engaged in the career of the bodhisattva, his mind must have been impure. Otherwise, how could this buddhafield appear to be so impure?”*
> *The Buddha, aware of venerable Śāriputra’s thoughts, said to him, “What do you think, Śāriputra? Is it because the sun and moon are impure that those blind from birth do not see them?”*
> *Śāriputra replied, “No, Lord. It is not so. The fault lies with those blind from birth, and not with the sun and moon.”*
> *The Buddha declared, “In the same way, Śāriputra, the fact that some living beings do not behold the splendid display of virtues of the buddhafield of the Tathāgata is due to their own ignorance. It is not the fault of the Tathāgata. Śāriputra, the buddhafield of the Tathāgata is pure, but you do not see it.”*
In the "Pure Land" tradition, when practitioners make aspirations to be reborn in a “pureland,” that type of pureland is called a *natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafield* or a *natural saṃbhogakāya buddhafield.*
Comment by gum-believable at 03/02/2025 at 20:48 UTC
12 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Personally, I have never ever even attempted to search for joy and happiness. I believe the right attitude is to first give up your thoughts of "gaining happiness". Going to or visualizing a place called "pure land of bliss" has never been my reason of trying to understand Buddha's teaching. My only goal is to understand the true nature of reality.
The first jhana is bliss, so an aversion to accepting and recognizing happiness will be counterproductive to your progress along the eightfold path. The Buddha also attempted denial and the life of an ascetic, but mastery of those practices did not help him realize nibbana. It was not until he remembered a blissful time in his childhood away from all unskillful desires that he made progress toward enlightenment and liberation from samsara, the destruction of karma, and realization of ultimate truth.
Comment by redkhatun at 03/02/2025 at 21:36 UTC
13 upvotes, 1 direct replies
The Buddha teaches different methods for different people, there are instructions for Bodhisattvas that are very down to earth when compared to the Perfection of Wisdom sutras, it's all Mahayana because it teaches Bodhicitta and the Six Perfections.
Comment by Kitchen_Seesaw_6725 at 04/02/2025 at 05:31 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Our current world is Nirmanakaya.
Pure Land (Sukhavati) is Sambhogakaya.
Mind of Amitabha is Dharmakaya.
Beings who reside in Pure Land are trained on the path of bodhisattva, hence Mahayana.
If you contemplate on these, you may resolve your conflict.
Comment by LackZealousideal5694 at 04/02/2025 at 10:06 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
When the sutra says "there exists a world called Ultimate Bliss" and "there exists a Buddha called Amitabha," it is saying that both that world and that Buddha do actually exist. There are four meanings here.
1. It indicates that there is a real Pure Land, and makes us happy to seek it.
2. It gives us truthful instructions, to make us concentrate on the Pure Land.
3. It states that the Pure Land is not a figment of the imagination or a mirage, that it is not a provisional manifestation or a roundabout teaching not to be taken literally, that it is not an empty falsity, that it is not a land reached via the Theravada vehicle.[13]
4. It demonstrates perfectly that the Pure Land is part of our true nature, to enable us to have a profound realization of it and penetrate into the truth of Real Mark (the Mind).
My only goal is to understand the true nature of reality.
Also from the same commentary:
The true essence of all the Great Vehicle (Mahayana) scriptures is absolute reality [Real Mark] itself. What is absolute reality? It is the Mind of sentient beings. This mind is not inside, not outside, and not in-between. It is not past, not present, and not future. It is not green or yellow or red or white, long or short or square or round. It is not a scent, not a flavor, not a texture, not a mental object. When we search for it we cannot find it, but we cannot say it does not exist. It creates all worlds and all realms, but we cannot say it exists. It is detached from all conditioned thoughts and discriminations, from all words and characteristics, but all conditioned thoughts and discriminations and all worlds and characteristics do not have any separate independent identity apart from it.
Essentially absolute reality is detached from all characteristics, but merged with all phenomena. Being detached from characteristics, it is formless, and being merged with all phenomena, it gives them all their forms.
For lack of an alternative, we impose on it the name "absolute reality" [i.e., Mind, Real Mark, Buddha Nature].
The essence of absolute reality is neither quiescent nor aware, but it is both quiescent and yet ever shining with awareness, both shining with awareness and yet ever quiescent. In that it is shining with awareness but quiescent, it is called the Land of Eternally Quiescent Light. In that it is quiescent but shining with awareness, it is called the pure Dharmakaya (Dharma Body). Aware quiescence is called the Dharmakaya, the Dharma Body of all the Buddhas. Quiescent awareness is called the Sambhogakaya, the Reward Body of all the Buddhas...
[For the Buddhas] quiescence and awareness are not two, bodies and lands are not two, what is inherent and what is cultivated are not two, true essence and responsive function are not two -- everything is absolute reality. Reality and appearances are neither two nor not two.
Therefore, the essence of reality as a whole acts as both the environment that surrounds sentient beings and as their very bodies. It acts as both the Dharma Body and the Reward Body of the Buddhas. It acts as both self and others.
Thus the one who speaks the sutra and the one who is spoken of, the Buddhas that can deliver sentient beings and the sentient beings who are delivered, the ability to believe and that which is believed in, the ability to take vows and that which is vowed, the ability to concentrate on the Buddha-name and the Buddha-name which is concentrated upon, the ability to be born in the Pure Land and birth in the Pure Land itself, the ability to praise the Buddhas and the Buddhas who are praised --all of these are the imprint of the "true seal" of absolute reality. [Thus the mind of sentient beings (absolute reality)is the true essence of all Mahayana Sutras.]
Comment by Tongman108 at 04/02/2025 at 10:22 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Here, Buddha is trying to "describe" what the nature of reality is.
I believe you are incorrect with thus assumption.
There are different levels of sutras
For example Vajra/Diamond Sutra, Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, Heart Sutra pertain to the ultimate truth, if you study them well & practice well , you would gain insights, however these sutras are not for everybody some of the would be shocking and unacceptable or incomprehensible, scary or subject to be misunderstandings.
When we talk about pureland, we are talking about liberation from samsara and continuing one cultivation in a pureland( manifested by a buddha)..
When reborn in the pureland each person will have there own level of attainment some low still with karma & some high & sagely, regardless if not enlightened they will continue learning in an environment that is conducive to buddhadharma and will attain the realization of the ultimate truth spoken about in the:
Vajra/Diamond Sutra, Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, Heart Sutra.
Subhuti, fearless bodhisattvas do not cling to a dharma, much less to no dharma.
And especially this important statement above & when this statement is realized one has to put it into practice.
I have extreme difficulties understanding why Pure Land Buddhism is classified as Mahayana
Well according to your understanding of the vajra sutra you should also understand that from the perspective of the ultimate truth 'time' doesn't exist , hence from that perspective:
Wether sentient beings attain buddhahood in the present body whole alive
Or
Are reborn in the purelands and need to cultivate and study for 10000 years to awaken.
Is equal in the eyes of the buddhas as the concept of time only belongs to sentient beings.
Hence there is non- duality between the ultimate truth & expedient truth.
84000 gates for 84000 dispositions.
Best wishes & great attainments!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Comment by Sensitive-Note4152 at 03/02/2025 at 22:29 UTC
2 upvotes, 3 direct replies
The Heart Sutra says "No suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path". That is a direct negation of the Four Noble Truths. You are just fixating on one specific apparent contradiction. There are lots of apparent contradictions in Buddhism (both Theravada and Mahayana).
Comment by Querulantissimus at 03/02/2025 at 23:34 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Because the goal in pure land buddhism is to become fully awakened, not to become an arhat.
Comment by Tall_Significance754 at 03/02/2025 at 20:56 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Me too.
Comment by FUNY18 at 04/02/2025 at 00:02 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Mahayana is the teachings of the Buddha. Why would you have extreme difficulties over Pure Land being classified as Mahayana.
It should be classified Mahayana because the Buddha's teachings are Mahayana.
Comment by YUNGSLAG at 04/02/2025 at 04:44 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Respectfully, Who cares just practice and experience for yourself. How it’s categorized really means nothing