created by SarahAGilbert on 06/06/2023 at 22:53 UTC*
12379 upvotes, 89 top-level comments (showing 25)
On April 18, 2023, Reddit announced it would begin charging for access to its API[2]. Reddit faces real challenges from free access to its API. Reddit data has been used to train large language models that underpin AI technologies, such as ChatGPT and Bard, which matters to us at AskHistorians because technologies like these make it quick and easy to violate our rules on plagiarism, makes it harder for us to moderate[3], and could erode the trust you have in the information you read here. Further, access to archives that include user-deleted data violates your privacy.
2: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/technology/reddit-ai-openai-google.html
3: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5qy8/reddit-moderators-brace-for-a-chatgpt-spam-apocalypse
However, make no mistake, **we need API access to keep our community running.** We use the API in a number of ways, both through direct access and through use of archives of data that were collected using the API, most importantly, Pushshift. For example, we use API supported tools to:
Admins have promised minimal disruption; however, over the years they’ve made a number of promises to support moderators that they did not, or could not follow up on, and at times even reneged on:
4: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/profiles
5: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ADigest
Reddit’s admin has certainly made progress. In 2020 they updated the content policy to ban hate[10] and in 2021 they banned and quarantined communities promoting covid denial[11]. But while the company has updated their policies, they have not sufficiently invested in moderation support.
6: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3cbo4m/we_apologize/
10: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/hi3oht/update_to_our_content_policy/
API access isn’t just about making life easier for mods. It helps us **keep our communities safe** by providing important context about users, such as whether or not they have a history of posting rule-violating content or engaging in harmful behavior. The ability to search for removed and deleted data allows moderators to more quickly respond to spam, bigotry, and harassment. On AskHistorians, we’ve used it to help identify accounts that spam ChatGPT generated content that violates our rules. If we want to mod on our phones, **third party apps** offer the most robust mod tools. Further, third party apps are particularly important for moderators and users who rely on screen readers, as the official Reddit app is inaccessible to the visually impaired[12].
Mods need API access because Reddit doesn’t support their needs.
We are highly concerned about the downstream impacts of this decision. Reddit is built on volunteer moderation labour that costs other companies millions of dollars per year[13]. While some tools we rely on may not be technically impacted[14], and some may return after successful negotiations[15], the ecosystem of API supported tools is vast and varied, and the tools themselves require volunteer labour to maintain. Changes like these, particularly the poor communication surrounding them, and cobbled responses as domino after domino falls, year after year, risk making r/AskHistorians a worse place both for moderators and for users—there will likely be more spam, fewer posts helpfully directing users to previous answers to their questions, and our ability to effectively address trolling, and JAQing off[16] will slow down.
13: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/technology/facebook-accenture-content-moderation.html
14: https://www.reddit.com/r/toolbox/comments/141locs/announcement_reddits_upcoming_api_changes_and/
Without the moderators who develop, nurture, and protect Reddit’s diverse communities, Reddit risks losing what makes it so special. We love what we do here at AskHistorians. If Reddit’s admins don’t reach a reasonable compromise, we will protest in response to these uncertainties.
Comment by mmenolas at 06/06/2023 at 23:47 UTC
2362 upvotes, 12 direct replies
Thank you for this post. I’d seen a lot of subs saying they’d be going dark for a couple days in protest of the changes but I’d largely seen people complaining about not wanting to use the official app and preferring their third party ones. This is the first explanation I’ve read as to the significance of the changes that makes me understand and support your decision. So thank you, as is always the case with this subreddit I learned something new!
Comment by The_Alaskan at 06/06/2023 at 23:51 UTC
902 upvotes, 3 direct replies
I hope AskHistorians joins in the strike against these changes to the API. My dissatisfaction with the lack of support for community moderators led me to leave the moderation team and cut back my contributions here and elsewhere to almost nothing. Moderators and community organizers are vital to the ecosystem on this website and others, and I don't think they're being treated well here.
Comment by derpmeow at 07/06/2023 at 07:28 UTC
89 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Are you guys just fundamentally unable to write a post without providing historical context and citations?
I'm joking. Thank you guys. You're a great buncha mods.
Comment by Feezec at 07/06/2023 at 05:03 UTC
86 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Is there a contingency plan to archive existing askhistorians content outside reddit and/or move to a different platform like https://join-lemmy.org/[1] ?
Comment by SlightlyBadderBunny at 07/06/2023 at 07:46 UTC
69 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Louder for those who can't hear.
Comment by LorneMalvoIRL at 06/06/2023 at 23:18 UTC
228 upvotes, 2 direct replies
So are you joining the shutdown?
Comment by wthulhu at 07/06/2023 at 03:21 UTC
177 upvotes, 2 direct replies
r/askhistorians is a quintessential example of how a subreddit can be run in an egalitarian, calm, and respectable manner. If you do not have the tools to operate in the way that has been accustomed due to the shortsided vision of VC investors then maybe it's time to close shop.
Comment by Lord_Razgriz at 07/06/2023 at 02:20 UTC
49 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I appreciate all the work ya'll do making this subreddit one of the best, if not the best, on Reddit. Mods are what keeps Reddit from turning into 4chan and ya'll don't get nearly the credit or support you deserve.
I really hope Reddit gets their heads outta their asses but based on the way things have been going the last 5+ years, I'm not confident. I doubt Reddit wants to kill the site but I'll be damned if it doesn't look like thats the goal.
Comment by Peakbrowndog at 07/06/2023 at 01:54 UTC
141 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I haven't read a single one of these posts until y'all's, just because I knew it would bring the receipts and no hyperbole. Thanks for a concise and complete explanation.
Comment by 4x4is16Legs at 07/06/2023 at 02:35 UTC
27 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I’ve been watching every day to see what you planned. The whole of Reddit can crumble, but I simply cannot live without AskHistorians. All my browsing other subs are merely waiting for the next Askhistorians rabbit hole.
You are loved.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/06/2023 at 08:58 UTC
22 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This is probably the best sub on all of Reddit. Best moderated, best content, most respected.
It’s really only subs like this that make Reddit worthwhile. The memes are funny sometimes, some comments are genuinely hilarious, but without the knowledge disseminated by subs like this and the occasional expert in the comments somewhere it’s all just silly pointless fluff and I will not be sticking around.
I’ve seen a couple of comments elsewhere asking whether this sub would shut down too, and I hoped it would be the case.
Really glad to see this post.
Hopefully someone at Reddit hq realises what they’re about to do.
Comment by righthandofdog at 07/06/2023 at 12:09 UTC
22 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Of COURSE /r/askhistorians has the best, most substantive answer to the blackout question
Comment by [deleted] at 07/06/2023 at 01:02 UTC
57 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by Grwwwvy at 07/06/2023 at 09:05 UTC
17 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Why not just make askhistorians its own website?
Its always been the case that reddit doesnt listen to its community, and none if these protests have ever made any impact before. If reddit is going to get worse and worse, maybe it's time to jump ship while there are still enough of us left. Personally onxe third party app access Is removed I'll never see an askhistorians post again, and i know I'm far from alone.
If any community on reddit can make the jump, it's this one. Besides the community is going to get gutted in terms of numbers, and the way things work on the backend is going to change anyway. Might as well do it on your own terms this time so that in the future, when reddit gets worse again askhistorians doesn't suffer too (the alternative seems to be the death of this community as reddit removes the moderation tools nessecary to keep things high quality).
Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and goodbye to every one of you who decide to remain only on reddit, was nice talking and listening to all of you :).
Comment by Max_Insanity at 07/06/2023 at 06:16 UTC
18 upvotes, 0 direct replies
In case this whole thing goes horribly south and I get sick of using this site and/or subreddits start going down en masse:
Thank you very much for all your efforts over the years, mods. You are the unsung heroes of this place we've all enjoyed so much.
[removed]
Comment by [deleted] at 07/06/2023 at 14:29 UTC
14 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by ChillGuru1 at 07/06/2023 at 02:12 UTC
26 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Speaking as someone who loves going into this sub everyday to learn new things, what can I do to support the mods here, or fight the changes Reddit is trying to implement?
Comment by Merceni at 07/06/2023 at 02:05 UTC
10 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Sincere wishes that this message, amongst the words of many other sub communities, is heard!
Comment by blacktieaffair at 07/06/2023 at 03:28 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It's responses like this, and this sub in general, that make me feel like a part of the internet worth being on still exists. Don't know why it hit me so hard, but there it is. I hope you all get everything you need to continue the extremely important work of this sub.
Comment by Not_A_Doctor__ at 07/06/2023 at 00:28 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I definitely support this.
Comment by glowdirt at 07/06/2023 at 02:52 UTC*
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I hope the Admins read this post.
It summarizes the arguments against their decision well and in a way that is easy to understand.
Comment by hedgehog_dragon at 07/06/2023 at 03:10 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You've got my support, for whatever that might mean... AskHistorians is one of the few subreddits where I don't feel like I'm wasting my time, where I actually engage my brain and learn rather than mindlessly scrolling. So I hope you're able to maintain the standards you've created.
Comment by ErickFTG at 07/06/2023 at 03:54 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This would be worst lose by far. This sub is truly special.
Comment by sati_lotus at 07/06/2023 at 03:06 UTC
25 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Can this be cross posted to r/bestof? It explains things so well. We're aware of third party app side, but I rarely see any info about the hardship the mods face because of this.
Comment by Kashyd at 07/06/2023 at 09:34 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Thank you for the insight. Please let us know if you guys are moving to another platform. I'll go wherever this community goes.