Gday Can Duckling Proxy work with OpenNIC to avoid using mainstream web Also Does anyone have some good guides to create a low bloat HTML website without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies OpenNic :- https://www.opennic.org/ https://github.com/kewlfft/opennic-up I came across OpenNIC over on HackerPublic Radio - hpr3323 :: The alternate Internet you never knew existed https://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=3323 - DDL - http://hackerpublicradio.org/local/hpr3323.ogg Regards Charliebrownau charliebrownau@Protonmail.com ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 11:00 AM, <gemini-request@lists.orbitalfox.eu> wrote: > Send Gemini mailing list submissions to > > gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > gemini-request@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > gemini-owner@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Gemini digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [Tech][Idea] Local (Magic) Proxy HTTP to Gemini > > (Jonathan McHugh) > 2. Re: [Tech][Idea] Local (Magic) Proxy HTTP to Gemini > > (Jonathan McHugh) > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 19:10:33 +0200 > > From: Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels > > To: The Gnuserland gnuserland@mailbox.org > > Cc: Andrew Singleton singletona082@gmail.com, > > gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > > Subject: Re: [Tech][Idea] Local (Magic) Proxy HTTP to Gemini > > Message-ID: 87fsx9su46.fsf@libre.brussels > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Quite, > > I did appreciate eLinks given its extensibility with Lua and Guile. > > Alas, the lack of response following distro maintainers messages meant > > it was removed from distros like OpenBSD. > > The Gnuserland gnuserland@mailbox.org writes: > > > I think majority of these TUI web browsers are just kept alive by the distros maintainers and their development is quite staled... > > > > On June 21, 2021 9:34:06 AM EDT, Andrew Singleton singletona082@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Meanwhile I would be happy if this/terminal browsers like lynx. W3m, > > > > > > etc simply gained Gemini support. > > -- > > Jonathan McHugh > > indieterminacy@libre.brussels > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:12:19 +0200 > > From: Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels > > To: gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > Subject: Re: [Tech][Idea] Local (Magic) Proxy HTTP to Gemini > > Message-ID: 87k0ml4q1o.fsf@libre.brussels > > Content-Type: text/plain > > I hadnt realised that eLinks has been resussitated with a fork > > (Felinks)! Thanks for the heads up, the NEWS file looks promising > > => https://github.com/rkd77/elinks/blob/master/NEWS > > Particularly so, given fresh references to Python 3, as well as brotli and zstd encodings. > > However, its worth citing from this > > => https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2/network/felinks/ > > NOTE: Felinks will conflict with Elinks, so currently only one can be > installed at a time > > > It would probably be best for that project to be more clear that the > > original eLinks project is dead with the Felinks name and a new site (Im > > clearly behind the curve. > > It would be good to know how this project is percieved by the wider FOSS community. > > Personally, it would be nice to dust off my old eLinks scripts and see how they > > apply following bitrot and forking. > > Hopefully it would be a good excuse to use PEGs from Lua and/or Guile to convert HTML > > content to Gemini content. Id like to do this from September. > > Id assert that (f)elinks would be a useful interface not only for > > working across HTML and Gemini content but additionally pushing HTML > > towards Gemini content (Im now recalling a very old conversation > > regarding eLinks functionality, whereby my friend likened such > > intervensions to 'Stalinux'). > > Ta, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan McHugh > > indieterminacy@libre.brussels > > Francis Siefken fsiefken@gmail.com writes: > > > Hi gnuserland, > > > > There is Duckling Proxy. > > > > "Duckling proxy is a Gemini proxy to access the Small Web. Connecting to it > > > > with your Gemini client means you can access many web pages directly with > > > > your favourite client." > > > > => https://github.com/LukeEmmet/duckling-proxy > > > > I recently created an elinks feature request for gemini, my favorite > > > > console http browser, it appearently also supports gopher, nntp, ftp and > > > > bittorrent. > > > > https://github.com/rkd77/elinks/issues/121 > > -- > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Gemini mailing list > > Gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- > > End of Gemini Digest, Vol 23, Issue 40
On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 at 12:38, charliebrownau <charliebrownau@protonmail.com> wrote: > Gday o/ > Also Does anyone have some good guides > to create a low bloat HTML website > without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies There are plenty of guides on the web on how to write HTML and CSS. JS is not a requirement at all to write them unless you want interactives, cookies even less so. => https://duckduckgo.com/?q=HTML => https://duckduckgo.com/?q=CSS After that you just need hosting, for simple sites something like http-server is fine, or if you want to make something more robust you can use apache. If you don't want to host it yourself there are plenty of ways to pay for hosting, I haven't done it myself though so I've got no recommendations. => http-server https://github.com/http-party/http-server => apache https://httpd.apache.org/ (Both installable via package managers) Or you could just use Gemini 😉 Gemini sites are available on the web via proxies: => https://portal.mozz.us/ => https://proxy.vulpes.one/ portal.mozz.us is also makes a good example of a barebones web-site. -Oliver Simmons (GoodClover) => gemini://goodclover.xyz (yes, I know it's down)
On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, at 7:38 AM, charliebrownau wrote: > Also Does anyone have some good guides > to create a low bloat HTML website > without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies How about just writing HTML in HTML? http://john.ankarstrom.se/html/ Apache still supports server-side includes. https://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/howto/ssi.html You can build a static website with m4 and a makefile if you really want to go nuts. https://web.archive.org/web/20190813130112/https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2393 https://web.archive.org/web/20190922140823/https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5594 The language used in the following is NSFW (profanity) but that should be obvious from the URLs. http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ https://bestmotherfucking.website/ These are kinda satirical, but they show that most web development headaches and bloat are entirely self-inflicted. If you have to, you can get by with raw HTML. But your website can have little a CSS, as a treat. JavaScript, server-side logic, databases, and cookies are entirely optional if you're building a website and not a web application. -- Matthew Graybosch gemini://starbreaker.org "The lies you tell yourself are the lies that define you." PS: Your blog doesn't need a comments section. People should quote, link, and comment on their own blogs instead of expecting you to provide them a soapbox. PPS: If you want to use the Jekyll static site generator for building a website, you might be interested in the jekyll-oedipus-theme gem I'm working on for my own use. Code's available at https://github.com/matthewgraybosch/jekyll-oedipus-theme, but it's still rough/incomplete. #include <disclaimer.h>
On 23-Jun-2021 12:38, charliebrownau wrote: > Gday > > Can Duckling Proxy work with OpenNIC > to avoid using mainstream web > It should be fine, although I've not tried it to confirm. My understanding is that OpenNIC is just an alternative DNS provider, so it should be transparent to applications once configured. If not, pull requests are welcomed :) - Luke
On 23/06/2021 22:28, Luke Emmet wrote: > On 23-Jun-2021 12:38, charliebrownau wrote: >> Can Duckling Proxy work with OpenNIC to avoid using mainstream web > > My understanding is that OpenNIC is just an alternative DNS provider, > so it should be transparent to applications once configured. Exactly. You can set it up so that your system's default DNS provider is OpenNIC, and then everything should use it automatically. The program dnscrypt-proxy might be of help with this. I don't know if there are any Gemini capsules on one of the OpenNIC TLDs...? It would be cool if there are. -- pjvm
On Wed Jun 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM BST, charliebrownau wrote: > Also Does anyone have some good guides > to create a low bloat HTML website > without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies > i'd say that gemini is pretty much what you want as it is. my postflow is gemini first then convert to HTML: so it's mainly the links that need work (come to think of it awk would be ideal for that:-)) i'm masochistic enough to do it by hand until i write a bash script to do it for me. imo there is no need for javascript, etc to build useful web-pages. and for cookies - don't set them. i use pelican for my html sites but i think that pandoc would work well after a gmi to md conversion. i think that there are already .gmi to html converters in the wild. cheers neil
> > You can build a static website with m4 and a makefile if you really want > to go nuts. i actually did this back in the day - lots of brackets! i prefer .gmi and .md these days. cheers neil
Is there a (dictionary) repo covering sites which operate for both Gemini and HTML? If so, it would be great for browsers to then be whipped into visiting/providing the Gemini one each time a URI is considered. PJ vM <pjvm742@disroot.org> writes: > On 23/06/2021 22:28, Luke Emmet wrote: >> On 23-Jun-2021 12:38, charliebrownau wrote: >>> Can Duckling Proxy work with OpenNIC to avoid using mainstream web >> >> My understanding is that OpenNIC is just an alternative DNS provider, >> so it should be transparent to applications once configured. > Exactly. You can set it up so that your system's default DNS provider is > OpenNIC, and then everything should use it automatically. The program > dnscrypt-proxy might be of help with this. > > I don't know if there are any Gemini capsules on one of the OpenNIC > TLDs...? It would be cool if there are. -- Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels
Jonathan McHugh <indieterminacy@libre.brussels> writes: > Is there a (dictionary) repo covering sites which operate for both Gemini > and HTML? I don't think it's worth the effort to keep a directory of sites that are available on both Gemini and the Web. It's hard to keep it up-to-date, to inform geminauts about it and more importantly it's not like a Gemini capsule and a website on the same will have the same content. Furthermore, there are people (like me) that have the web site and the gemini capsule on different subdomains (www and gemini respectively). (it hurts to speak about HTTP on a gemini mailing list) What could be done is use a HTTP header to inform the web browser that that site is available also over Gemini. This way, the effort wouldn't be on a bunch of people running a directory, but rather on the server administrator. Something like a `Gemini-location: <url>'. From my understanding it's something that the tor project is doing: % curl --head https://www.torproject.org | grep -i location Onion-Location: http://2gzyxa5ihm7nsggfxnu52rck2vv4rvmdlkiu3zzui5du4xyclen53wid.onion/index.html > If so, it would be great for browsers to then be whipped into visiting/providing > the Gemini one each time a URI is considered. > > > PJ vM <pjvm742@disroot.org> writes: > >> On 23/06/2021 22:28, Luke Emmet wrote: >>> On 23-Jun-2021 12:38, charliebrownau wrote: >>>> Can Duckling Proxy work with OpenNIC to avoid using mainstream web >>> >>> My understanding is that OpenNIC is just an alternative DNS provider, >>> so it should be transparent to applications once configured. >> Exactly. You can set it up so that your system's default DNS provider is >> OpenNIC, and then everything should use it automatically. The program >> dnscrypt-proxy might be of help with this. >> >> I don't know if there are any Gemini capsules on one of the OpenNIC >> TLDs...? It would be cool if there are.
Hi Omar, Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Of course, in addition to an (appropriately named) header location, having a special /gemini.html page. This could give an individual/collective justification and more visible signposting to the uninitiated/distracted (to provide some escape velocity). JM > Jonathan McHugh <indieterminacy@libre.brussels> writes: > >> Is there a (dictionary) repo covering sites which operate for both Gemini >> and HTML? > Omar Polo <op@omarpolo.com> writes: > I don't think it's worth the effort to keep a directory of sites that > are available on both Gemini and the Web. It's hard to keep it > up-to-date, to inform geminauts about it and more importantly it's not > like a Gemini capsule and a website on the same will have the same > content. Furthermore, there are people (like me) that have the web site > and the gemini capsule on different subdomains (www and gemini > respectively). > > (it hurts to speak about HTTP on a gemini mailing list) > > What could be done is use a HTTP header to inform the web browser that > that site is available also over Gemini. This way, the effort wouldn't > be on a bunch of people running a directory, but rather on the server > administrator. Something like a `Gemini-location: <url>'. From my > understanding it's something that the tor project is doing: > > % curl --head https://www.torproject.org | grep -i location > Onion-Location: http://2gzyxa5ihm7nsggfxnu52rck2vv4rvmdlkiu3zzui5du4xyclen53wid.onion/index.html > >> If so, it would be great for browsers to then be whipped into visiting/providing >> the Gemini one each time a URI is considered.
On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 12:02:32PM +0200, Omar Polo wrote: > What could be done is use a HTTP header to inform the web browser that > that site is available also over Gemini. This way, the effort wouldn't > be on a bunch of people running a directory, but rather on the server > administrator. Something like a `Gemini-location: <url>'. From my > understanding it's something that the tor project is doing: > > % curl --head https://www.torproject.org | grep -i location > Onion-Location: http://2gzyxa5ihm7nsggfxnu52rck2vv4rvmdlkiu3zzui5du4xyclen53wid.onion/index.html Something that could work is an Alt-Svc header: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Alt-Svc These were sometimes used to advertise Onion sites before the Onion-Location header spec was released and supported by the Tor Browser. This is unlikely to give any major benefit for Gemini though, esp. if gemini:// isn't IANA-registered; browsers don't know what Gemini is and will ignore it. Perhaps a browser addon could sniff out an Alt-Svc header advertising a Gemini capsule? I'm generally against adding HTTP headers if they don't make a significant difference, especially if they're ignored by all the existing user agents. If information needs to reach a user and is ignored by the user agent, it should be included in the response body rather than the header. -- /Seirdy (seirdy.one)
On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, at 4:38 AM, charliebrownau wrote: > Gday > Also Does anyone have some good guides > to create a low bloat HTML website > without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Getting_started_with_the_web looks good. You'd want to skip the part that explains how to add a bit of JavaScript to your site, of course. After you get annoyed trying to keep multiple pages in sync with each other, you can look into using a static-site generator like Hugo to generate a bunch of pages from some templates and a handful of Markdown files. You probably shouldn't _start_ by using a static-site generator, though. Hugo: https://gohugo.io/
On 2021-06-23 11:38, charliebrownau wrote: > Also Does anyone have some good guides > to create a low bloat HTML website > without javascript/python/dotnet/cookies I find these guidelines useful => gemini://seirdy.one/2020/11/23/website-best-practices.gmi
On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 07:38:42PM +0500, Anna “CyberTailor” wrote: > I find these guidelines useful > > => gemini://seirdy.one/2020/11/23/website-best-practices.gmi Thanks for the shout-out; I was resisting the urge to self-promote :3. It's a living document that I update every now-and-then. Feedback is very welcome. I wouldn't actually recommend reading too deeply into the article when just starting out; just try to keep your site relatively basic. Once your basic site is up, you can start going through the guidelines. The main theme is "simplicity leads to flexibility": the more "tech" you throw at your site, the more likely it is that someone in a niche situation is going to experience major issues. The article actually borrows one idea from the philosophy behind Gemini: pages should respect the preferences of the user. Use the user's favorite fonts/colors (though maybe offer a dark stylesheet for users with darkmode enabled who use default settings) instead of "branding". I'll probably update it this weekend. The image optimization section needs a bit of an overhaul since I switched from OxiPNG/ZopfliPNG to Efficient-Compression-Tool and started building libaom/avifenc with jpeg-xl's butteraugli tuning metric. I should also add some more advice on achieving good contrast with a dark background as per the Advanced Perceptual Contrast Algorithm: bluish colors on a black background have lower perceptual contrast than, say, yellowish colors. I should also recommend keeping CSS under 1.5kb and inlining it, since CSS is a render-blocking resource. I also need to make an article about self-hosting. A well-tuned custom-built Nginx+OpenSSL/kernel combined with a good TLS setup can handle a few thousand req/sec on a multi-core low-power single-board computer. Oh, and try to support IPv6. The cost of a fixed IPv4 address is typically a few bucks a month; a VPS is basically an add-on to your IPv4 address at that point. For the next decade or three, IPv4 servers aren't going anywhere, but we can at least try supporting both. Make sure your site works over Tor. Bonus points for offering a hidden service to eliminate the need for an exit node. -- /Seirdy
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