Adrian asked about the snirfneblin. He suggested we upgrade all classes to the highest LA in the party. I suggested we downgrade them all to LA +0. He said that would turn them into the races in the PHB. I’m not sure. Here’s what I would do:
The default gnome traits no longer apply.
Traits no longer available (supposedly worth three levels):
#RPG #thoughts
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Hmmmm. I’d be inclined to take out the Spell-like abilities and replace with
for LA +0.
Allow the other abilities to be gained in place of Feats, should the player wish. *Spell Resistance* should have a prerequisite of the *Spell-like Abilities* because that’s particularly powerful, and have the +4 AC be bought in chunks of +2 AC (ie, it’s two feats). These can be gained as Fighter bonus Feats.
This means that a Svirfneblin could take the *Spell-like Abilities* in place of their 1st level Feat and get *Spell Resistance* at 3rd Level. A Svirfneblin Fighter could do that and gain +2 AC at 1st level too, taking another +2 AC at 2nd level with another bonus Feat.
What d’you think?
– GreyWulf 2008-06-27 10:06 UTC
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Would the svirfneblin retain *nondetection*?
If you make those changes, you end up with a race that is very similar to the PHB gnome, with darkvision 120’ (very nice, I admit), different ability score modifiers, and no spell-like abilities (a normal gnome still gets a few cantrips). It doesn’t seem much different than a gnome, or a gnome/dwarf mash-up. I’d settle for weaker spell-like abilities (I think *blindness* is in particular quite good).
I am also morally opposed to abilities like the +1 vs. kobolds, goblinoids, and/or orcs that gnomes and dwarves currently get, and the +4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants. They always seemed kind of silly to me. Along with elven weapon proficiencies and elven secret door radar.
On a somewhat unrelated note, from a pure game mechanics perspective, dwarves/elves/halflings/humans >> half-elves/half-orcs/gnomes in the PHB. That really annoys me. All the races should be equally interesting and viable. I shouldn’t have to sacrifice capability to RP an interesting race.
– Adrian 2008-06-27 11:37 UTC
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I don’t know: I wouldn’t like this (downgrading the races to LA 0: With the exception of the savage transition classes where you get it back).
Reason: All the fun from playing “other” races (than those in the PHB) comes from the fact that they are different. Different means that they have spell like abilities, other stats, resistances, etc. If you strip those away, well, you get the PHB races like Adrian said, or something which is only “a bit” different.
I like the idea of upgrading the other players so that everbody has the same LA. I think the players will like this best, and isn’t this whats it all about?
– Sektat 2008-06-27 11:40 UTC
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Hm. I like the low level game. This essentially means that the human cleric will start on third level. Do we really want that?
– Alex Schroeder 2008-06-27 14:10 UTC
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No, I was suggesting in upgrading his race (human) to max(LA) of all players (even better: suggesting a cool template to him/her like “celestial creature”. Who wouldn’t like that?). So he would still be a level 1 (class level) cleric and we don’t have HD differences in the party.
– Sektat 2008-06-27 14:28 UTC
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But... but... I *like* low-power (to avoid saying low-level in this context) play!
Then again, many people don’t like 1st and 2nd level, and D&D 4E also seems to start players at the power-level of level 3 or 4. So maybe that’s not such a bad idea.
Let me think about it some more.
– Alex Schroeder 2008-06-27 16:22 UTC
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Hmm, in that case just give’em 3d6, for their stats. No joke: really think about it. LA+2, but low stats
– Sektat 2008-06-27 16:39 UTC
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I don’t like 1st level in 3E, because I spend a fair amount of time designing my character, and suddenly one crit or bad roll and my character is dead. It is not so bad for fighters and barbarians, but it is atrocious for wizards and sorcerers, and bad for anyone with a d6.
Here’s the problem with LA: the abilities are good, the powers are pretty potent and sometimes abusable, but at low level, nothing can compare to BAB, saves, and hit points. A 4th level human character or a 1st level svirfneblin? No contest, I’ll take the human PC every day of the week, in terms of power.
The way you could approach it is to remove problematic abilities that are contributing to the LA. Spell resistance, regeneration/fast healing, >5 damage reduction, blindsight, and some of the more potent spell-like abilities stand out, to me. As do bonuses that you can’t normally get, like a svirfneblin’s +4 dodge bonus to AC (no magic item grants such an awesome AC bonus). If you strip away the problem abilities AND replace them with other abilities that are interesting but not game-breaking, the players can play cool races with more options, and the DM doesn’t have a headache with high-powered PCs.
– Adrian 2008-06-27 18:30 UTC
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For example, here are some of the problem abilities I see in some of the races mentioned so far for the Alder King game:
Feytouched – immunity to mind-affecting spells (blanket immunity against a very broad spectrum of effects is generally annoying for the DM)
Svirfneblin – spell resistance (though if you play it by the book, it has some drawbacks), +4 dodge bonus to AC, continuous *nondetection* (I am not sure on this one, but I bet I can abuse it if I try hard enough), +2 bonus to all saves (very nice, but achievable with relatively low level magic items, so it might not be game-breaking)
Drow – spell resistance
So I think the stuff Alex pulled out of the svirfneblin is reasonable, though I was drooling over the +4 AC. Oh well 😄
– Adrian 2008-06-27 18:41 UTC
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Hmm... I’m not sure what kind of template I’d want to apply. Plain old simple human works perfectly for my purposes.
But since we’re on the topic... would there be some way to make him undead to start with? Now *that* would be cool (though I guess I can kiss those ranks in diplomacy goodbye).
– Marco 2008-06-28 12:54 UTC
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I had a flick through the monster manual yesterday, and spotted two cool templates: the half-fiend and the lich. Two problems: they’ve bot got EL adjustment +4, and the lich requires a caster level of at least 11 to create his own phylactery.
Might be a cool long-term goal though. 😄
– Marco 2008-06-29 09:08 UTC
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Another idea... you could start my plain old regular cleric off at level 1, and assign him a 20% XP bonus until it totalled 3 levels worth. That way you get the low level gameplay and equality.
And if that’s not your cup of tea, just leave him as human and be done with it. Clerics are pretty powerful in their own right.
– Marco 2008-06-29 15:59 UTC
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You like the the half-fiend template, and I like the half-celestial template.....
– Sektat 2008-06-29 16:27 UTC
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Hehe, Alex mentions the possibility of having dark elves and other LA races in his next game, and now we’re talking about svirfneblin, liches, and half-fiends 😄
– Adrian 2008-06-29 19:01 UTC
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Well, a simple Tiefling has a LA +1...
I do think it’s getting a bit out of hand, though. I mentioned goblins as player characters and they have a LA +0. Claudia mentioned Drow because those were the only obviously sinister sorcerous humanois she knew. But there are several other races in the Player’s Guide for this setting that might fit the bill and that come without level adjustments. As I’m not a power gamer, playing strange races for their cool powers seems pointless and weird. 😄 The Player’s Guide mentions Dark Elves on page 23, for example:
This would be much easier to handle than the positive LA races. Maybe somebody else can DM a high-powered game based on non-traditional races?
– Alex Schroeder 2008-07-01 14:23 UTC
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LA is a headache, I agree. The longest 3E game I played in started using LA +1-4 races, and we ended up using racial levels instead of LA. It worked out ok, except that the spellcasters largely ignored the racial levels, since spellcasting >> everything else.
I didn’t mean to open up a can of worms with the svirfneblin. When I saw drow/dark elf, I assumed the MM version, and didn’t even think to look in the Player’s Guide.
I might go with a forest gnome (basically a slightly better version of the standard PHB gnome with more forest flavor), and perhaps go illusionist instead of rogue. I dunno. Illusionist might be lots of fun in this game.
– Adrian 2008-07-01 18:52 UTC
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I just had a look at The Complete Guide to Fey by Goodman Games – and it has four LA +0 fey races in it. Hmmmm... 😄
The Complete Guide to Fey by Goodman Games
– Alex Schroeder 2008-07-03 22:42 UTC
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If you need a list of all LA +0 races, look here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10002276
– Sektat 2008-07-04 07:35 UTC
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There’s some lovable races in there. Any chance that those LA +0 races will be allowed?
– Sektat 2008-07-04 08:19 UTC
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Thanks for the link. As for the LA +0 races: You mean for the Monday Group? Sure...
– Alex Schroeder 2008-07-04 11:37 UTC
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Cool! I always liked races/templates which includes something with a celestial heritage. Holy! Good! I already mentioned the half-celestial template, but that is LA +4 which is no fun. But there is also the aasimar race (strange that this is a “race”), but even that one is LA +1. But the solution is: Lesser aasimar! LA 0. Manual of the planes, according to the link above. Just for flavor I will look at that race as a human with celestial heritage and not as a race itself.
– Sektat 2008-07-04 14:15 UTC
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Well, that’s exactly what they are: “Planetouched is a general word to describe someone who can trace his or her bloodline back to an outsider, usually a fiend or celestial.” The examples I have seen also included humans and half-elves that lived for a long time – generations – in the outer planes. They start taking on features of the planes that surround them.
I like it how in D&D Lamarckism wins over Darwinism. 😄
– Alex Schroeder 2008-07-04 14:40 UTC
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if you want the exact racial traits from the lesser drow and the lesser svirfneblin, tell me. I can send you a screenshot.
– Sektat 2008-07-05 06:32 UTC